Corals dying ICP test results

[Seabed]

Hi

First post on the forum so please be kind

My reef has been running for 2.5 years, all was good until about 4 months ago when several of my SPS and LPS starting deteriorating.
Green candy cane started loosing heads and Acropora started to slowly loose tissue, some from the base but others from the middle of the branches, they appeared to loose colour prior to shedding. Several corals have now died completely that used to grow very quickly. I should also mention that coralline algae stopped growing around a similar time period.
I completed a 100 litre water change 2 months ago in an attempt to refresh the water, coral degradation seemed to pause for a couple of weeks before starting again.
Another noteworthy mention is the tank has become completely infested with vermetid snails in the same time period, every mm of rock covered.

Tank parameters as follows:
Red Sea reefer 350
Top off converted to refugium Containing Cheato lit 24/7.
Autotop off
Temp 26.2c
Skimmer 24/7 but stopped producing heavily.
2x Hydra 26 HD set on david saxby program
2 gyres for water movement on OGC program
Carbon run occasionally
3 part dosing (Aquaforrest 123)
Salinity 1.026
Nitrate 5 ppm (used to be zero)
Phosphate 0.1 (used to be zero)
Calcium 450 (always)
Alk 8.1 (always)
Mag 1400 (always, Red Sea kit)
Ph 8.14

I can’t see any damaged magnets or cables and am at a loss to resolve this issue.

RO water for top off TDS reading of 11. I’ve only just connected the TDS meter to the RO unit so have no idea what it used to run at, I imagine 11 is a bit high and I will order new resin but could this be the source of the Contaminants (A friend uses my RO water for his reef and he isn’t experiencing any issues with his corals).

This week I sent off an ICP test for the first time and got the following results.

Any help or advise would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you

 

[TheHarold]

Tin and copper. You've got something rusting in there!! Check powerheads and pumps asap.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I’m not certain those values are high enough to be an issue, but I agree looking for metal in the water is worthwhile.

Definitely replace the di resin now. Should be 0 ppm tds

 

[Seabed]

Tin and copper. You've got something rusting in there!! Check powerheads and pumps asap.

Thanks, I have checked before but I’ll look again in case I missed something.

 

[Seabed]

I’m not certain those values are high enough to be an issue, but I agree looking for metal in the water is worthwhile.

Definitely replace the di resin now. Should be 0 ppm tds

Thanks Randy, I’ll sort the di resin straight away in case it’s contributed.

So you think the ICP values are possibly not the issue I’m looking for and I should continue looking elsewhere for an issue that may be affecting the corals?

Thanks

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thanks Randy, I’ll sort the di resin straight away in case it’s contributed.

So you think the ICP values are possibly not the issue I’m looking for and I should continue looking elsewhere for an issue that may be affecting the corals?

Thanks

I would consider other possibilities, yes. Different corals will have different sensitivities, and one cannit know toxicity from concentration alone (it depends on chemical firm too), but I’ve had copper twice that high without apparent issue, and quite a few folks find substantial tin and do not have coral issues.

That said, copper and tin are among the most toxic elements that we encounter in reefs.

Search on tin. There is loads of discussion on toxicity and sources, which may include aquarium glass and pvc piping.

 

[Seabed]

I would consider other possibilities, yes. Different corals will have different sensitivities, and one cannit know toxicity from concentration alone (it depends on chemical firm too), but I’ve had copper twice that high without apparent issue, and quite a few folks find substantial tin and do not have coral issues.

That said, copper and tin are among the most toxic elements that we encounter in reefs.

Search on tin. There is loads of discussion on toxicity and sources, which may include aquarium glass and pvc piping.

Thanks, it’s interesting that you mention the pvc piping. I actually re plumbed my sump just before the tank went down hill, I swapped out all the flexi pipes and hard plumbed it in PVC. I didn’t even consider it to have been a possible factor.

 

[IslandLifeReef]

I agree with @Randy Holmes-Farley and @TheHarold, tin and copper could be the issue. Since you changed about 30% of the water before you did the ICP test, those metal cold have been almost 50% higher than the ICP test showed before you did the water change. Since those metals are still present, it could take a while for the tank to recover. 0 TDS with RO water and several 20% water changes over the next two weeks is what I would recommend.

 

[Seabed]

I agree with @Randy Holmes-Farley and @TheHarold, tin and copper could be the issue. Since you changed about 30% of the water before you did the ICP test, those metal cold have been almost 50% higher than the ICP test showed before you did the water change. Since those metals are still present, it could take a while for the tank to recover. 0 TDS with RO water and several 20% water changes over the next two weeks is what I would recommend.

Thanks, I’ll certainly do that. Do you think it was the high TDS that could have introduced the tin and copper into the system or maybe the new pvc pipework.
Thanks

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thanks, I’ll certainly do that. Do you think it was the high TDS that could have introduced the tin and copper into the system or maybe the new pvc pipework.
Thanks

Possible, but not highly likely. Copper can come from your own pipes. Tin too if it is in the pipe solder.

 

[BeejReef]

Sorry to hear about your stonies.

What else changed when you re-plumbed your sump?
Whether chemical or biological, the way you describe it, it seems likely that was the catalyst.

Did you see a big drop in alkalinity consumption when your coraline stopped and your corals struggled?

Vermetid plague is also an interesting development. If they were already in the system, what caused them to explode? Did they come up from the sump during overhaul, or did some change in the system give them space to dominate?

 

[Seabed]

Sorry to hear about your stonies.

What else changed when you re-plumbed your sump?
Whether chemical or biological, the way you describe it, it seems likely that was the catalyst.

Did you see a big drop in alkalinity consumption when your coraline stopped and your corals struggled?

Vermetid plague is also an interesting development. If they were already in the system, what caused them to explode? Did they come up from the sump during overhaul, or did some change in the system give them space to dominate?

Firstly thanks for the input.

When I re-plumbed the sump, I moved the cheato from the skimmer area to the now drilled auto top off reservoir. I put a 1000lph pump In the skimmer area to feed it and the return into the return pump chamber. I would say that the cheato is getting less flow than before and it now grows a red sponge like algae on the surface, I would say the cheato is not thriving like it was before.

This was the only plumbing change other than hard piping the return pump to the aquarium.

Alkalinity did raise to 12.8 and mag to 1500 . This coincided with the coral growth stopping. I corrected with water change and have also all but stopped the aquaforest 123 dosing as consumption has reduced and it’s not currently needed. I was previously dosing 70ml per day of each solution and maintaining steady alk/mag/cal levels and getting weekly visual growth on the corals.

Vermetid population has exploded over a similar time period, I believe they were always some in the system but not enough to notice, something has changed in the aquarium that has allowed their numbers to dramatically increase. They are on all the rock, turbo snails are covered, the gyre pumps and cords are covered in them too. I read that it could be an excess amount of food in the system and I did feed the tank well. I have since really cut back the food going in but not seen any reduction in numbers.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Check hose clamps ???

 

[BeejReef]

Afraid I'm out of my depth. Strange thing, cause and effect. Can't always/usually know the cause with certainty. Often, even if you can, it has little bearing on the solution.. lol.

I imagine you'll have to do something about all of those vermetids though. If they weren't the problem, they are now. I know a lot of people enjoy a few and say they don't cause problems, but the density you describe is crazy. If you're planning a mass slaughter, I'd get on with it and endure whatever mild ammonia and nitrate spike you have to before putting back in any expensive stonies

 

[shred5]

Rust can be hidden...
My polyfilters were turning brown really fast and I could not figure it out.
I went and lifted up a pump that was running a skimmer and orangish water came out the back. Popped off the back and they had not put enough epoxy in the pump to seal it..

Also the newer Vortech pumps magnets rust and you would not know till they swelled and cracked the casing.

 

[Seabed]

Check hose clamps ???

All plastic

 

[Seabed]

Afraid I'm out of my depth. Strange thing, cause and effect. Can't always/usually know the cause with certainty. Often, even if you can, it has little bearing on the solution.. lol.

I imagine you'll have to do something about all of those vermetids though. If they weren't the problem, they are now. I know a lot of people enjoy a few and say they don't cause problems, but the density you describe is crazy. If you're planning a mass slaughter, I'd get on with it and endure whatever mild ammonia and nitrate spike you have to before putting back in any expensive stonies

When I did my last couple of water changes I did smash them all as much as I could then syphoned what I could out. They all came back after a couple of weeks so a pointless exercise but it made me feel better Fortunately no ammonia spike registered on my seneye either time, probably because I didn’t actually kill any of them!

 

[rmurken]

Possible, but not highly likely. Copper can come from your own pipes. Tin too if it is in the pipe solder.

Could the organic tin compounds used in some PVC processing applications be a possible source of tin? My understanding is that organotin stabilizers do not leech, but doesn’t mean there couldn’t be a problem with a batch or under particular circumstances. Shot in the dark. I am not a plastics expert of any kind.

 

[Seabed]

Could the organic tin compounds used in some PVC processing applications be a possible source of tin? My understanding is that organotin stabilizers do not leech, but doesn’t mean there couldn’t be a problem with a batch or under particular circumstances. Shot in the dark. I am not a plastics expert of any kind.

It’s definitely a consideration, I don’t know anything about plastics either but the tank going down hill definitely coincided with the re-plumb.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Could the organic tin compounds used in some PVC processing applications be a possible source of tin? My understanding is that organotin stabilizers do not leech, but doesn’t mean there couldn’t be a problem with a batch or under particular circumstances. Shot in the dark. I am not a plastics expert of any kind.

Yes, that’s one of the possibilities.