Correct NO3 + PO4 Dosing Ratio To Avoid Reducing Either to 0.0?

Miami Reef

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If your fertilizer preferentially grew your weeds faster than your grass, would you recommend using less fertilizer??
Sure. If the grass has enough fertilizer to grow, I’d definitely reduce input. I don’t think the weeds would stop growing though.
 
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naterealbig

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Sure. If the grass has enough fertilizer to grow, I’d definitely reduce input. I don’t think the weeds would stop growing though.

In most contexts, I think there is an important distinction between "nutrient levels (test result)" and "nutrient input". I think you can have high levels of one and low levels of the other, or vice versa. Different combinations of these along with levels of ammonia input, (desirable bacterial) populated surfaces, export through filtration, and relative coral mass (acting as nutrient export), result in different outcomes with respect to problem algaes/bacterias/dinos.
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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Yes, that's my intent almost perfectly stated. Although I don't have the resources to perform a true experiment, I wanted to log my process/progress/failure for anyone who may be interested.

I seems to me that with respect to new tanks, ammonia is what gives all the weird stuff that shows up in the ugly phase the upper hand, so I'd like to try to minimize it, or at least maintain a slow addition for the first few weeks/months. Along that line (and for my specific goal) I want to provide what the corals need nutrient/nutrition wise (through small real food additions and inorganic NO3/PO4) but not an excess, as there's really nothing to consume the extra right now except algae/cyano/dinos or whatever.

I actually got the idea from Roberto Denadai, who started a (beautiful) sps reef with unseeded plastic rocks and siporax. He added corals to this system almost immediately. When i asked him how he did it, he said "simple, i just didn't add any fish" (right away) and let the corals and frag plugs act as the bacteria 'source'.

Here was the system, but i can't find the original thread. May be on rc... I'll try to find, and will post.

IMG_0990.png

Minimizing nutrients when there are no other photosynthetic organisms to worry about may be a fine plan (aside from dino risk).
Minimizing ammonia may also make it harder for pests than nitrate.

But if and when you have other things you want to keep and grow, I cannot see a rationale for a benefit.

In established tanks with corals, I think minimizing ammonia is a negative rather than a positive.
 

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naterealbig

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Minimizing ammonia may also make it harder for pests than nitrate.
This more than anything, i think is what I'm leaning on most heavily for the immediate circumstance of my system.

In established tanks with corals, I think minimizing ammonia is a negative rather than a positive.
I've read a lot on this and it makes complete sense to me. With my system being so new, I really just want to prevent excessive growths which may poison or suffocate the (few) frags i have. I agree that herbivores (as many have stated) will help a lot in this regard, and believe that ammonia is beneficial (if i recall, mainly through your articles/thread responses) to the high 'flux' system I'm looking to achieve once my tank has matured a bit, and i have more corals and to act as N/P/NO3/PO4/NH3 sinks .
 
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naterealbig

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Ah - this is one of the reads i was referring to in my last post. Thanks for posting.
 

Lionfish hunter

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Hello,

I am getting a 0.0 Nitrate reading (Hanna, HR) in a newly set up (currently fishless (on purpose)) aquarium. (PO4 reading is 0.03 ppm (Hanna, ULR)).

I am considering dosing nitrate (in the form of NaNO3) to raise NO3 to readable level (just above the stated Hanna error margin). (I am aware that an increase in nitrate can also be accomplished through ammonia(ium?) dosing, but I am trying to avoid any significant amount of ammonia availability to the system for the first/next few weeks.).

I understand (through discussion here but mostly) through my own observations that low levels of PO4/NO3 can(/usually are) reduced to zero if the other is dosed by itself.

To avoid a reduction of current PO4 level (from 0.03) to 0.0, I would like to understand what a reasonable dosing starting point would be for both NO3 + PO4 assuming the dosing will occur simultaneously. (ex: dose enough Na3PO4 to increase PO4 by 0.015 ppm and dose enough NaNO3 to increase NO3 by 0.24 ppm).

I assume there is no 'rule' here, but if there is an educated estimate I could put together that would:

a) increase my NO3 to detectable levels (to say, > 0.5 ppm) whilst
b) preventing my NO3 from falling < 0.03 ppm

I would be grateful.

My (perhaps 'special') logic is saying to start somewhere ~ Redfield ratio.

Which brought up another thought/aside (I suppose for the moment, one that hopefully doesn't completely derail the focus on the next small step I'm trying to figure out); should I take into account carbon in my solution? (Logic is also telling me that if I add carbon, there is the potential to bottom out both NO3+PO4). Or would the recommendation from the pros be to dose carbon, nitrate, and phosphate simultaneously for the best results? (with best being defined as readable NO3, readable PO4, (SPS) corals staying alive, minimizing chance of pest algae/bacteria outbreak in a very new system).

Thank you in advance, and please feel free to point out gross conceptual errors. I always feel like I've got a pretty good handle on aquarium biology, until I start reading through the articles/responses/chatter from Randy, Subsea, Garf, BeanAnimal, and the likes :) ... Promise to have a thick skin along with a willingness to learn (and put in the effort/time/reading if pointed in a direction).
Nitrate testers including hanna are reliably trash. My hanna read 0 so I dosed nitrates. Kept reading 0 so I kept dosing more. Got the point where it was crazy how much nitrate I was dosing to get 0. So I tested with nyos, 0 nitrates. Then I tested with API(which everyone ***** on). It read 200! I made a nitrate solution of 200 nitrate, tested with hanna and nyos and they both showed 0! Bought another nyos and it also showed 0! Using a solution with a known amount of nitrate. So be careful, nitrate test kits really suck. I even saw the guy from brs say in a video that they stopped experiments about nitrates because the tests were too unreliable. And he sells nitrate test kits.
 
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naterealbig

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Nitrate testers including hanna are reliably trash. My hanna read 0 so I dosed nitrates. Kept reading 0 so I kept dosing more. Got the point where it was crazy how much nitrate I was dosing to get 0. So I tested with nyos, 0 nitrates. Then I tested with API(which everyone ***** on). It read 200! I made a nitrate solution of 200 nitrate, tested with hanna and nyos and they both showed 0! Bought another nyos and it also showed 0! Using a solution with a known amount of nitrate. So be careful, nitrate test kits really suck. I even saw the guy from brs say in a video that they stopped experiments about nitrates because the tests were too unreliable. And he sells nitrate test kits.
Thanks for the cautionary note - may pick up an API test kit and take a look. Any idea why these test kits weren't picking up the nitrate in your system?
 

Miami Reef

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Thanks for the cautionary note - may pick up an API test kit and take a look. Any idea why these test kits weren't picking up the nitrate in your system?
I really like the Salifert Nitrate test. It’s quick and very precise.
 

CHSUB

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Trying to reduce pest algae by keeping nutrients low is typically a fail if corals are present as thy need the same nutrients at similar levels.
I see a simple solution. Corals are healthier, Ime, when some of their nutrient needs are met with particulate food. Reducing inorganic nutrients limits all algae including symbiotic dinoflagellate and pest algae. Corals tell hobbyists when they need food, just like fish; I see no reason to feed symbiotic algae with inorganic nutrients when I can just as easily feed the corals directly.
 
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naterealbig

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I see a simple solution. Corals are healthier, Ime, when some of their nutrient needs are met with particulate food.
I'm feeding particulate (and other forms of) food to the display currently.

Reducing inorganic nutrients limits all algae including symbiotic dinoflagellate and pest algae.
Incidentally or coincidentally, in a separate (similarly set up) tank a few weeks ago, I had a massive dino outbreak. Read through the "I'm Tired of Dino's" something-or-other thread, and followed directions. Step 1 pulled out the scope and ID'd the ones I had. Step 2: test PO4. 0.0 per Hanna ULR. Step 3: Dose PO4 to can't remember the amount.... I did this and 2 days later they were completely gone, and never came back. I battled these for months on a BB SPS system a couple years ago, and I was traumatized lol.

All that to say, it is my observation that low/no inorganic PO4 can also possibly be very problematic.
 

CHSUB

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I'm feeding particulate (and other forms of) food to the display currently.


Incidentally or coincidentally, in a separate (similarly set up) tank a few weeks ago, I had a massive dino outbreak. Read through the "I'm Tired of Dino's" something-or-other thread, and followed directions. Step 1 pulled out the scope and ID'd the ones I had. Step 2: test PO4. 0.0 per Hanna ULR. Step 3: Dose PO4 to can't remember the amount.... I did this and 2 days later they were completely gone, and never came back. I battled these for months on a BB SPS system a couple years ago, and I was traumatized lol.

All that to say, it is my observation that low/no inorganic PO4 can also possibly be very problematic.
The argument for Dinos and increasing inorganic nutrients is that “something” else grows and outcompetes the dinos for availability of resources and this something else is limited by nutrients and some how Dinos magically grow in the absence of nutrients. Did you observe this something else or did the dinos just magically disappear in 2 days because of dosing po4?
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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The argument for Dinos and increasing inorganic nutrients is that “something” else grows and outcompetes the dinos for availability of resources and this something else is limited by nutrients and some how Dinos magically grow in the absence of nutrients. Did you observe this something else or did the dinos just magically disappear in 2 days because of dosing po4?

I agree with that statement except I don’t consider it magic that they may simply compete better at low nutrients than do less troublesome organisms.
 

CHSUB

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I agree with that statement except I don’t consider it magic that they may simply compete better at low nutrients than do less troublesome organisms.
Question about competing at low nutrients? If calcification is inhibited by elevated po4 levels, wouldn’t coralline algae be best suited to survive at the lowest levels of nutrients. Seems, imo, by raising po4 we inhibit the most desirable algae, coralline and that the true variable is time since coralline is slow growing? The hobbyist is better to maintain low nutrients, manually removing pests while waiting for coralline to grow?
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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Question about competing at low nutrients? If calcification is inhibited by elevated po4 levels, wouldn’t coralline algae be best suited to survive at the lowest levels of nutrients. Seems, imo, by raising po4 we inhibit the most desirable algae, coralline and that the true variable is time since coralline is slow growing? The hobbyist is better to maintain low nutrients, manually removing pests while waiting for coralline to grow?

I do not know if coralline is inhibited by reasonable phosphate levels. But even if it is, that does not mean it is better at competing with anything else at low nutrient levels.
 

rishma

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Yes! I’m a big fan of “reasonable” phosphate levels….
What’s reasonable to you? My memory is you like them lower than me.

I like 0.05-0.15. Higher probably ok. Lower makes me nervous.
 

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What’s reasonable to you? My memory is you like them lower than me.

I like 0.05-0.15. Higher probably ok. Lower makes me nervous.
With a Hanna Checker: .00 I feed my corals directly every other day, above .05 I start skipping direct coral feeding some days. I only this year started directly feeding corals with all flow stopped and was amazed the amount of food they capture. My highest test with my 9 month old tank is .07.
 

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