Could this be velvet?

[omykiss001]

So I thought I was dealing with Crypto given how it started in the tank but wondering if I'm wrong looking for 2nd opinion. It started with some spots isolated to the tail of my royal gramma, and a bit of flashing on sand and rock work. Next a few days my kole tank had lots of smallish spots not tiny, but not really large. Looked like crypto I had dealt with before. No one seemed distressed very little flashing and none were seeking high flow nor breathing heavily.

I began to trap and catch all the fish, took about three days to do so. Kole and clowns first, sharing a 10 gallon tank and began dosing cupramine on 12/15 full dose by the 18th. All in the tank have been doing well other than some minor appetite suppression by the clowns, the Kobe still eats well.

Gramma, yellow and powder brown tang into a 20 gallon long. Starting adding cupramine on 12/16 0.5 mg/L by afternoon of 12/18. Powder brown had some spots on body and pectoral fins but acted and ate normal until today, yellow tang never showed any spots at all and acted competency normal.

CCB was going through TTM as assumed it was crypto and did not handle the copper all that well in QT this the equipment for TTM, might be moving him to the full copper if the thought this is velvet. He is breathing pretty hard, but all spots on his fins are gone he's in 2nd transfer.

Yesterday the yellow tang looked as though he was knocked out not breathing. I'll post a link to that thread in a follow as didn't think it related until today. Sadly the yellow expired yesterday evening [emoji853]

Now today the powder brown is not eating and is breathing rapidly, the gramma is acting fine and was the first to show any signs there was disease. I've added an air stone to the tank to get as much air as possible to the powder brown, I'm afraid it won't last the night.

Wish I had some pics but thought it was a clear cut case of crypto and have been busy getting everyone into hospital. Looking at some existing pics of velvet and given I now have 3 fish in critical condition thinking velvet might be what I've got. Threw me as first signs on the gramma 1st showed on 12/12 and it wasn't until yesterday that anyone seemed distressed. Obviously treatment wise I'm doing what is called for, except the CBB who will most likely be moved to copper not sure how he'll tolerate that but plan to acclimate slowly as I can.

Anyone seen crypto act this way? None of the fish have any spots on fins or body that I can see currently, but fish are starting to drop. Never had a velvet outbreak before so don't know how if fully presents in the animals.

What do you think, does it sound more like velvet or could it still be crypto? Trying not to freak out, but hate not being able to do anything but wait it out.

Also all fish were treated in QT with prazi so thinking flukes are not part of the problem, but may dip the powder brown if he doesn't make to be certain.

Any help most appreciated.

 

[omykiss001]

Here is the link to what happened to the yellow before he went down hill.

Anyone every had a fish knock themselves out before??
https://www.reef2reef.com/index.php...-a-fish-knock-themselves-out-before??.226519/

 

[redfishbluefish]

Hopefully @Humblefish or @melypr1985 could help.

 

[melypr1985]

So you say the spots were large and not too numerous to count? Velvet can look like a dusting of small dots, coupled with the rapid breathing and other symptoms you mentioned. The copper is the way to treat both anyway, so you should be covered except for the CBB. Is the CBB tolerating the TTM well? Are his symptoms disappearing or getting worse? If it was velvet then I would think the CBB would be dead by now. Pictures would help clear it up of course.

 

[Humblefish]

When was the last new livestock purchase (even coral/invert) added to your DT? If symptoms first showed on 12/12, that would be 8 days ago. You should have lost a lot more fish by now if it's velvet. Pics would really help.

 

[Lynn52]

Any chance you used an ammonia detoxifier like Prime in the QT tank?

 

[omykiss001]

So you say the spots were large and not too numerous to count? Velvet can look like a dusting of small dots, coupled with the rapid breathing and other symptoms you mentioned. The copper is the way to treat both anyway, so you should be covered except for the CBB. Is the CBB tolerating the TTM well? Are his symptoms disappearing or getting worse? If it was velvet then I would think the CBB would be dead by now. Pictures would help clear it up of course.

Kole tang had more than I could count and they were smallish, but that is one of the few fish that is doing well. It's more that fish are going down hill I second guess my initial diagnosis if crypto.

 

[omykiss001]

When was the last new livestock purchase (even coral/invert) added to your DT? If symptoms first showed on 12/12, that would be 8 days ago. You should have lost a lot more fish by now if it's velvet. Pics would really help.

That where I think it came from some new corals end of November right after thanks giving. Also added some new chaeto as well.

My same thought if it was velvet figured more dead fish as well after such a period.

Wish I had pics, but no one has any noticeable spots that I can see right now just 1 dead fish, and one going down hill pretty quick. Gramma is clear on all fins was able to get a good look. Kole tang seems spot free, but he hides a lot in hospital tank, but eating good when I just peak in the room.

This just seems to be to virulent for crypto given no one other than the Kole tang seemed what I would consider a major infestation, and he's doing well right now.

That why I reached out to the forum hopes someone had seen either velvet or crypto start small then become more virulent as it does not act like the crypto I've seen before.

 

[omykiss001]

Any chance you used an ammonia detoxifier like Prime in the QT tank?

No chance these tanks are cycled and the ammonia badge is as yellow as can be. Bio filter are established and working as they should.

 

[Humblefish]

I've seen instances where ich can seemingly spiral out of control like velvet does. However, it usually happens following a "stressor event" such as a prolonged power loss, heater sticks, big fish fight, etc. Or if you happen to have a "ich magnet" Acanthurus tang (i.e. your Powder Brown) things can quickly go south because his skin/gills are like a breeding ground for ich. An acanthurus tang's mucous coat is greatly reduced in composition, thus making them very susceptible to external protozoa.

I guess if I were in your shoes I would assume the worst and everyone would get copper treatment. That way you're covered both ways. Of course, CP would be ideal right now - but I know we already had that conversation in another thread. You might also consider administering a FW dip and/or acriflavine bath, if you're comfortable doing that.

 

[melypr1985]

I think it's crypto. You may have something else coupled with it that is making it more difficult for them to overcome. You can freshwater dip one of the fish that's in better shape and see if any flukes come out of the gills.

Humble totally beat me to the fresh water dip idea..... we were thinking the same thing.

 

[omykiss001]

I've seen instances where ich can seemingly spiral out of control like velvet does. However, it usually happens following a "stressor event" such as a prolonged power loss, heater sticks, big fish fight, etc. Or if you happen to have a "ich magnet" Acanthurus tang (i.e. your Powder Brown) things can quickly go south because his skin/gills are like a breeding ground for ich. An acanthurus tang's mucous coat is greatly reduced in composition, thus making them very susceptible to external protozoa.

I guess if I were in your shoes I would assume the worst and everyone would get copper treatment. That way you're covered both ways. Of course, CP would be ideal right now - but I know we already had that conversation in another thread. You might also consider administering a FW dip and/or acriflavine bath, if you're comfortable doing that.

Do you think the powder brown could handle it. He's the one who needs the relief the most, everyone else is doing good. I think flukes are a low probability all fish that come into the QT get 2 treatments with prazi over 7 days.

I wonder if the big stressor could have been capture and movement to the hospital for both of those tangs. They definitely did not like and seemed depressed to not be in the big tank anymore.

If you think the freshwater dip on a fish in major distress would be a better chance than leaving it alone It's worth a shot.

How much clean sea water can I add to the RO/DI to buffer the pH about, was thinking 20-30 mL in a gallon should probably do it.

Thanks for all the suggestions guys really appreciate it.

As I said in an earlier thread nothing will go to the DT without QT, I knew I was playing with fire just thought it was more like a match than a flamethrower [emoji15]

Lesson learned, the hard way, lol

 

[melypr1985]

The fresh water dip isn't just for flukes- even though I mentioned that specifically. It should also help dislodge any ich parasites out of the gills helping the fish breathe easier. It would buy you a little more time on the worst fish until they can be helped by the copper.

 

[Humblefish]

Many different diseases can be brought in on an unQT'd coral or chaeto - ich, velvet, brook, flukes, etc. The FW dip would confirm/deny the presence of flukes, but also help clear the gills if velvet or brook was in play here. See below for more info.

Freshwater Dip: Provides temporary relief for Brooklynella, Flukes, Marine Velvet disease (Amyloodinium); possibly even Ich & Uronema marinum (both unproven). Can be used to confirm the presence of Flukes.

How To Treat - Fill a bucket with RODI water, and use a heater to match the temperature to the water the fish is coming from. Aerate the water heavily for at least 30 minutes prior to doing the dip, then discontinue aeration while performing the dip. Fish aren’t overly pH sensitive for short durations like this, but you can squirt a little tank water into the dip just before the fish goes in to help bring it up.

Place the fish in the freshwater (FW) dip and observe closely. It is not unusual for them to freak out a little at first. Also, tangs are notorious for “playing dead” during a FW dip. The important thing is to watch their gills; they should be breathing heavily at all times during the dip. If breathing slows, it’s time to exit the dip. Dip the fish for no longer than 5 minutes. Multiple dips may be done, but it’s important to give your fish a day to recuperate in-between dips.

For flukes, use a dark (preferably black) bucket so you can see if tiny white worms fall out of the fish (especially out of the gills) at around the 3-4 minute mark. The worms will settle to the bottom, so you can use a flashlight to look for them there as well.

Pros - Provides temporary relief for a wide range of diseases in a chemical free environment. Can “buy you more time” until a proper treatment can be done.

Cons/Side Effects - Not a permanent “fix” for any disease, as FW dips are not potent enough to eradicate all of the parasites/worms afflicting the fish. Some fish can have an adverse reaction to a FW dip by appearing unable to maintain their equilibrium once returned to the aquarium. If this happens, hold the fish upright (using latex, nitrile or rubber gloves), and gently glide him through the water (to get saltwater flowing through the gills again). It is also a good idea to place the fish in an acclimation box until he appears “normal”.

 

[omykiss001]

I'll give it a shot on the powder brown he is the worst of the crew, don't have any dark buckets, red is about as dark as it gets for me, guess better than white.

Thanks again for all the quick responses.

 

[omykiss001]

OK that had to be the longest 5 minutes of my life, followed 2nd by 10 minutes holding the fish near powerhead and moving him back and forth.

Seems to have done good, at the 30 minute post mark he was swimming on his own and swimming higher and further from the cave so I'd say at least 70% improved compared to before where he was having trouble staying fully upright. Maybe I'm being to optimistic right now and I'll be more certain tomorrow if he swimming well and maybe takes food again.

Whew! Thanks for the suggestions, hope he makes it.

 

[omykiss001]

Oh ya no worms left behind at least any visible to the naked eye.

 

[Humblefish]

If the Powder Brown's breathing improves, then that strongly suggests the FW dip helped to clear his gills of parasites. Since ich embeds more deeply than velvet/brook, a FW dip is much more effective at removing these "surface parasites." Hint hint hint.

 

[omykiss001]

If the Powder Brown's breathing improves, then that strongly suggests the FW dip helped to clear his gills of parasites. Since ich embeds more deeply than velvet/brook, a FW dip is much more effective at removing these "surface parasites." Hint hint hint.

He was still breathing pretty hard, but my guess is it will take some time for it to slow especially if he was becoming hypoxic, and the stress I'm sure he been under having a hard time getting O2.

I'll leave the air stone going in the tank overnight to keep maximum aeration of the water

 

[omykiss001]

Well good news fish survived the night, seems to be doing OK. I'd say breathing a little slower, but still pretty rapid compared to normal. So maybe the original crypto diagnosis still correct. Not out of the woods yet hopefully soon.