Cryptic Zonal System

[dank.reefer]

The main reason that Pacific live rock is prefered that most of the corals and livestock we keep in our tanks comes from indopacific reef systems. The live rock from these regions has a more accurate biome for the organisms we keep. Also due to the way it is packaged and shipped there are generally far less undesirable hitchhiker's. Florida rock usually ship's submerged so the hitchhikers stay in the rock. Since Pacific rock ship's wrapped in wet paper the undesirables usually will jump out of the rock and go to the bottom of the box looking for water. Florida rock is usually quarried rock dropped in the ocean were as Pacific rock is usually actual reef rock. Quarried and man made rock is more dense and has less porosity for microorganisms to populate. There are many reasons why pacific rock is better too bad it is so hard to come by.

The best deals I have seen on the Aussie rock come from Live Rock n' Reef. Pretty pricey stuff though. They also offer some man made Fiji rock for a competitive price but those rocks are basicaly cement that has been submerged for a year or 2. IMO the Fiji man made may be useful in seeding a new tank though I wouldn't want to use them beyond that. They are not the same legendary Walt Smith Fiji Rocks of years past.

 

[davidm777]

I feel I’ve rambled, possibly drifted off topic, so I’ll stop here, and hope I addressed your questions. Feel free to ask more.

Not at all. I am starting to like the idea of an algee scrubber along with a cryptic zone. I will start looking into them.

 

[davidm777]

I also have been searching for reading material, can you please link the article you refer to about salem's doc article? Thanks.

Reef builders is a great resorce for information. Here the link.

https://reefbuilders.com/2024/06/21...hy-reef-tank-heres-a-new-method-to-manage-it/

 

[Subsea]

@davidm777
Outstanding read. It took a second pot of coffee to finish reading.

“In layman’s terms, whenever water on a reef becomes polluted with DOC, a small amount of “sleeper cell” bacteria that typically perform beneficial tasks for the coral become activated like a Manchurian candidate and begin to wreak havoc on the corals, leading to the development of disease. i.e., dirty water = dirty bacteria.”

“This also explains why so many people who keep their inorganic chemistry in perfect order are still experiencing issues with coral disease. Because many trace element programs require users to stop water changes, this would allow for the continual build-up of DOC. Therefore, even if all trace elements come back as perfect on an ICP test and all parameters are stable, chronic exposure to high levels of DOC will always trigger a pathogenic shift.”

Absolutely spot on with nutrient recycling as the mainstay of long term Reefing. At this point, I am going to stop reading this white paper. The above paragraph highlights for the Reefing community the limitation of ICP testing.

These next paragraphs highlight how sponges remove excess nutrients/DOC.

“Another critical aspect of sponges is their ability to house many beneficial bacterial partners. Some partners are excellent at sequestering phosphate. A recent study illustrated that nearly 40% of the phosphate found in sponges was contained in granules composed of polyphosphate. This mineralization allows waterborne phosphate to be locked away and removed from a system. This could theoretically help decrease PO4 in a system.”

“Additionally, many species of nitrifying bacteria call sponges home, including anaerobic bacteria capable of anammox. Annamox is a chemical process of ammonia oxidation where bacteria can convert ammonia to nitrite and then nitrite to nitrogen gas. This skips the typical nitrate conversion step and allows nitrogen to leave the aqueous system (this could effectively decrease the NO3 levels of our systems). [10]”

In further reading the white paper, under “how to monitor DOC”, I found a reference to using ORP

“Another potential way to monitor DOC at a moment’s notice is to utilize ORP. I looked for hours and could not find any papers that directly correlated ORP to the TOC or DOC of a system. However, extensive data illustrates that ORP negatively correlates with biochemical oxygen demand (BOD). It’s also well established that BOD values have a very close association with the TOC of a system. Thus, a logical extension can be made that because BOD = TOC and BOD is inverse to ORP, this must mean that ORP is inverse to TOC. [13]”

@Randy Holmes-Farley
Any insight on the above paragraph about using ORP as an indicator of DOC.

 

[dank.reefer]

@davidm777
Outstanding read. It took a second pot of coffee to finish reading.

“In layman’s terms, whenever water on a reef becomes polluted with DOC, a small amount of “sleeper cell” bacteria that typically perform beneficial tasks for the coral become activated like a Manchurian candidate and begin to wreak havoc on the corals, leading to the development of disease. i.e., dirty water = dirty bacteria.”

“This also explains why so many people who keep their inorganic chemistry in perfect order are still experiencing issues with coral disease. Because many trace element programs require users to stop water changes, this would allow for the continual build-up of DOC. Therefore, even if all trace elements come back as perfect on an ICP test and all parameters are stable, chronic exposure to high levels of DOC will always trigger a pathogenic shift.”

Absolutely spot on with nutrient recycling as the mainstay of long term Reefing. At this point, I am going to stop reading this white paper. The above paragraph highlights for the Reefing community the limitation of ICP testing.

These next paragraphs highlight how sponges remove excess nutrients/DOC.

“Another critical aspect of sponges is their ability to house many beneficial bacterial partners. Some partners are excellent at sequestering phosphate. A recent study illustrated that nearly 40% of the phosphate found in sponges was contained in granules composed of polyphosphate. This mineralization allows waterborne phosphate to be locked away and removed from a system. This could theoretically help decrease PO4 in a system.”

“Additionally, many species of nitrifying bacteria call sponges home, including anaerobic bacteria capable of anammox. Annamox is a chemical process of ammonia oxidation where bacteria can convert ammonia to nitrite and then nitrite to nitrogen gas. This skips the typical nitrate conversion step and allows nitrogen to leave the aqueous system (this could effectively decrease the NO3 levels of our systems). [10]”

In further reading the white paper, under “how to monitor DOC”, I found a reference to using ORP

“Another potential way to monitor DOC at a moment’s notice is to utilize ORP. I looked for hours and could not find any papers that directly correlated ORP to the TOC or DOC of a system. However, extensive data illustrates that ORP negatively correlates with biochemical oxygen demand (BOD). It’s also well established that BOD values have a very close association with the TOC of a system. Thus, a logical extension can be made that because BOD = TOC and BOD is inverse to ORP, this must mean that ORP is inverse to TOC. [13]”

@Randy Holmes-Farley
Any insight on the above paragraph about using ORP as an indicator of DOC.

This is Great stuff I have not fully read the artical referenced here but I have seen plenty of people who are die hard ICP guys having struggles. There is a lot more at play in our liftle oceans than whag we realize sometimes. I think some of this new form of reefing where folks are trying to circumvent natural process through synthetic means, can cause issues that maybe just a simple water change or refuguim/cryptic zone could remedy. Not to mention the overall expense that it adds to the hobby to provide less reliable results.

 

[Shooter6]

I have also been kicking the idea of a cryptic fuge around for my next build. The main questions that I have not seen answered here are weather they are plumbed off the main drain or are people feeding them with a loop from the return pump? Then the other question is wether or not anyone is running a cryptic zone along with a macro refugium or is this just a redundant overkill?

Mine is the fist chamber off my main drain.

 

[dank.reefer]

Mine is the fist chamber off my main drain.

With or without socks/roller?

 

[Shooter6]

With or without socks/roller?

No socks, no pads or rollers. I did socks and pads in the past, but I'd rather let the pods , sponges and across feed. I dose live phytoplankton every other day as well though, so they feed on the dissolved organics, which then are consumed by pods,corals sponges etc.

 

[VintageReefer]

No socks, no pads or rollers. I did socks and pads in the past, but I'd rather let the pods , sponges and across feed. I dose live phytoplankton every other day as well though, so they feed on the dissolved organics, which then are consumed by pods,corals sponges etc.

Same here

Except I historically have never used phyto. I started this week and am on my second dose. Not out of a need, more from a curiosity

 

[Timfish]

Hey Tim,
Thanks for understanding the OBSESSION IS REAL and shooting those videos this way.
Why would you preffer Pacific live rock? I mean, I would prefer it myself but just because I am in San Diego.

You're welcome!

Because changes in microbiomes can have not only species specific but also genotype specific responses. It seems to me the closer we can match the conditions a coral is normally found in, and with, the better the chances of keeping it healthy for the decades or centuries they are capable of living.

 

[MrsBugmaster]

Just came across this thread and I have been thinking of adding a sponge cryptic zone to my sump. What is the best sponges to buy for this purpose?

 

[DCR]

They typically will just show up on their own if you have any live rock in your tank. You could buy a couple pieces of live rock from one of the Florida suppliers to seed it if you are really concerned. Tyree used to sell some cryptic packages, but I think that operation is dead.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

While I like both the concept and the “look” of such systems, I’m not aware of anyone demonstrating its effectiveness one way or the other in a reef tank at lowering organics.

I’d do it “for fun”. If it doesn’t seem like fun, I’d pick something else. :)

 

[Timfish]

While I like both the concept and the “look” of such systems, I’m not aware of anyone demonstrating its effectiveness one way or the other in a reef tank at lowering organics.

I’d do it “for fun”. If it doesn’t seem like fun, I’d pick something else. :)

de Goeij showed cryptic sponges process DOC 1000X faster than the bacteroplankton in a reef ecosystem and in the process they are dumping nitrogen rich detritus back into the food webs in the ecosystem. Do you have any research showing this is not happening? Why do you think we should not accept cryptic sponges (which from what I've seen over the last 4 decades are ubiquitous in established marine aquaria) are performing the same function in our systems?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

de Goeij showed cryptic sponges process DOC 1000X faster than the bacteroplankton in a reef ecosystem and in the process they are dumping nitrogen rich detritus back into the food webs in the ecosystem. Do you have any research showing this is not happening? Why do you think we should not accept cryptic sponges (which from what I've seen over the last 4 decades are ubiquitous in established marine aquaria) are performing the same function in our systems?

I’m simply saying there’s no evidence that they have a big effect in reef tanks. They may, and they may not. I’m happy to see such evidence if it exists.

Lots of people have them. I had them. I encouraged them by dosing silicate and by organic carbon dosing. But in the end, I have no idea how they compared to other organic export methods I also used (GAC and skimming primarily, plus regular water changes).

My personal expectation is that skimming removed much more doc and POC based on the amount of stuff removed by skimming vs the volume of sponges present. No study on a real coral reef of sponges vs bacteria has any bearing on that comparison.

 

[Big E]

I’m simply saying there’s no evidence that they have a big effect in reef tanks. They may, and they may not. I’m happy to see such evidence if it exists.

Lots of people have them. I had them. I encouraged them by dosing silicate and by organic carbon dosing. But in the end, I have no idea how they compared to other organic export methods I also used (GAC and skimming primarily, plus regular water changes).

My personal expectation is that skimming removed much more doc and POC based on the amount of stuff removed by skimming vs the volume of sponges present. No study on a real coral reef of sponges vs bacteria has any bearing on that comparison.

I'm not sure there is specific scientific evidence but Tyree's book is a good read if you want some info on how he set his up and results. If I remember right two how to's were no skimmer and very low flow.
https://reefs.com/steve-tyree-books-now-in-digital-format/
Old RC thread--
https://forums.reefcentral.com/threads/cryptic-sponge-sea-squirt-filtration-methodology.1733/

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I'm not sure there is specific scientific evidence but Tyree's book is a good read if you want some info on how he set his up and results. If I remember right two how to's were no skimmer and very low flow.
https://reefs.com/steve-tyree-books-now-in-digital-format/
Old RC thread--
https://forums.reefcentral.com/threads/cryptic-sponge-sea-squirt-filtration-methodology.1733/

Yes, I bought his book many years ago. :)

 

[Subsea]

“My personal expectation is that skimming removed much more doc and POC based on the amount of stuff removed by skimming vs the volume of sponges present. No study on a real coral reef of sponges vs bacteria has any bearing on that comparison“

True there is no nutrient export, until fragging and selling coral.

Cryptic sponges recycle nutrients into the microbial food web which feeds reef organisms.

 

[Big E]

Yes, I bought his book many years ago. :)

I still have the book but it's been 14 years since I read it.
:D

 

[Ohmegg]

@Subsea just for you I went to the sump and took some pics

In the display, I have this sponge colony. It’s a light tan color in person. It’s approx 5” across and growing these finger like appendages

And the earlier mentioned “blue rope sponge” which is the best ID I could get. As it gets tall it buckled over and attaches to things, then forms new branches. Every few months it attaches to something like a frag shelf or rock, I just peel it off, break the excess growth off, and put in the sump. Interesting, in the cryptic zone it is more of an encruster

This is really cool