Current Quarantine Protocol

[Reefer1978]

Does Hydrogen Peroxide affect QT process in any way? Tank is going through a bacterial bloom since the last QT, even after a 90% WC between QTs.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Does Hydrogen Peroxide affect QT process in any way? Tank is going through a bacterial bloom since the last QT, even after a 90% WC between QTs.

IDK - peroxide is tricky to use in that the amount of free peroxide left after an addition is based on the organic levels in the water - and those are related to how much peroxide you've already added (each addition oxidizes more organics, until more and more unreacted peroxide is left - and then, I've not heard what effect free peroxides have on coppersafe or praziquantel. Additionally, peroxide can kill bacteria, but it is indiscriminate, killing nitrifiers as well. When the bacteria is killed, the cells lyse and release their contents into the water. There, they serve as food for a new population of bacteria once you stop applying the peroxide.

Can you try to determine the root cause of the bacterial blooms? That seems odd - there shouldn't be any food for heterotrophic bacteria in between QT cycles, no fish in the tank, right?

Jay

 

[Reefer1978]

IDK - peroxide is tricky to use in that the amount of free peroxide left after an addition is based on the organic levels in the water - and those are related to how much peroxide you've already added (each addition oxidizes more organics, until more and more unreacted peroxide is left - and then, I've not heard what effect free peroxides have on coppersafe or praziquantel. Additionally, peroxide can kill bacteria, but it is indiscriminate, killing nitrifiers as well. When the bacteria is killed, the cells lyse and release their contents into the water. There, they serve as food for a new population of bacteria once you stop applying the peroxide.

Can you try to determine the root cause of the bacterial blooms? That seems odd - there shouldn't be any food for heterotrophic bacteria in between QT cycles, no fish in the tank, right?

Jay

I honestly can't figure it out. It's a 40g all in one, Sera Ciporax, rock, few small cubes of marine pure, nothing special. Bloom started with prazipro treatment of first batch of fish. I do have new fish in the tank going through QT round 2 right now, and I did a 90% water change between the runs. Ph is still low from round 1 when I first added prazi, and still staying low. Water is very hazy. Other than staying on top of Copper, I am just feeding Mysis 2x per day, one cube in the morning, one at night.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I honestly can't figure it out. It's a 40g all in one, Sera Ciporax, rock, few small cubes of marine pure, nothing special. Bloom started with prazipro treatment of first batch of fish. I do have new fish in the tank going through QT round 2 right now, and I did a 90% water change between the runs. Ph is still low from round 1 when I first added prazi, and still staying low. Water is very hazy. Other than staying on top of Copper, I am just feeding Mysis 2x per day, one cube in the morning, one at night.

A low pH, after that large of a water change, can be a sign of high carbon dioxide. That in turn is related to bacterial decomposition and lack of aeration. First thing, increase the aeration, more air stones to break the water's surface tension. Wait 24 hours and see if the pH rises.

As for the bacterial bloom - the glycol solvent in prazipro feeds bacteria. In most aquariums, it isn't noticeable, but you do see cloudy water from it now and again.

I'm concerned about you feeding "two cubes" of food a day. Any time I hear a person feeding a set amount of food, I worry - you should be feeding the fish, not the tank.

What I mean is use the fish as a "demand feeder" - put a little food in, when they eat all that, add a bit more, when that is all eaten, add some more. Do this for a few minutes, twice a day. If the fish don't eat fast enough in the morning, they will be extra hungry in the afternoon, and will feed faster, so you will add more food then. That way, there is no uneaten food in the tank, because THAT is the prime cause of cloudy water.

Jay

 

[alabella1]

@Jay Hemdal any big changes since this original guide? Are you planning a 2023 protocol and maybe a new thread because this one is a lot to go through! lol

 

[Reefer1978]

A low pH, after that large of a water change, can be a sign of high carbon dioxide. That in turn is related to bacterial decomposition and lack of aeration. First thing, increase the aeration, more air stones to break the water's surface tension. Wait 24 hours and see if the pH rises.

Air-stone has been in the tank since the first Prazy doze weeks ago - no change. Also I don't think it's an ambient Co2 issue as another tank in the same room doesn't have the same Ph issue.

As for the bacterial bloom - the glycol solvent in prazipro feeds bacteria. In most aquariums, it isn't noticeable, but you do see cloudy water from it now and again.

I'm concerned about you feeding "two cubes" of food a day. Any time I hear a person feeding a set amount of food, I worry - you should be feeding the fish, not the tank.

What I mean is use the fish as a "demand feeder" - put a little food in, when they eat all that, add a bit more, when that is all eaten, add some more. Do this for a few minutes, twice a day. If the fish don't eat fast enough in the morning, they will be extra hungry in the afternoon, and will feed faster, so you will add more food then. That way, there is no uneaten food in the tank, because THAT is the prime cause of cloudy water.

Jay

I am feeding the fish, 2 cubes is the current state after watching them for a week, by observing what they consume. Unfortunately I can't figure out how much they eat live as they hide all the time. I feed, walk away, they eat. Bud they do consume everything in 10 minutes when I walk away. I had the same experience with QT round 1, they are very different in the DT now, come out as soon as they see me, and I feed them pretty much how you are describing.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Air-stone has been in the tank since the first Prazy doze weeks ago - no change. Also I don't think it's an ambient Co2 issue as another tank in the same room doesn't have the same Ph issue.



I am feeding the fish, 2 cubes is the current state after watching them for a week, by observing what they consume. Unfortunately I can't figure out how much they eat live as they hide all the time. I feed, walk away, they eat. Bud they do consume everything in 10 minutes when I walk away. I had the same experience with QT round 1, they are very different in the DT now, come out as soon as they see me, and I feed them pretty much how you are describing.

No, I wasn't implying ambient CO2, but rather, CO2 given off by bacterial respiration in the tank itself. My normal test for high CO2 won't work in this case - I take a gallon of water out and aerate it overnight. If the pH rises, then there was high CO2 driving it down. It won't work in this case if it is the free floating bacteria in the water that is causing the issue, as that will still be in the gallon of water that you removed.

I'm still concerned that the tank is being overfed though.

The next rule-out is lack of sufficient mechanical filtration - if your filtration system isn't trapping small particles, they continue to circulate, keeping the water cloudy looking.

The final rule-out is to look down on the tank, not through the side glass. We had a case recently where we could not solve the cloudy water issue for a member. Turns out the water wasn't cloudy at all, there was just a bacterial film on the glass making it appear hazy.

Jay

 

[Jay Hemdal]

@Jay Hemdal any big changes since this original guide? Are you planning a 2023 protocol and maybe a new thread because this one is a lot to go through! lol

Actually, we change the first post on this thread as needed to keep things updated.

Quarantine is a trade off between how well it works and how much effort it takes. Obviously, no quarantine at all is the easiest to do, but also the least effective, catching 0% of contagious issues. Our process is about a 90:10 or 80:20 - it catches most, but not all of potential issues. It does require a lot of work.

I had asked the Fish Medics a few weeks ago if I should also post a "quick and easy" quarantine method - one that perhaps catches 50% of the issues, but with only 20% of the effort. The consensus was a resounding NO. "In for a penny, in for a pound" as the old saying goes.

Jay

 

[Reefer1978]

No, I wasn't implying ambient CO2, but rather, CO2 given off by bacterial respiration in the tank itself. My normal test for high CO2 won't work in this case - I take a gallon of water out and aerate it overnight. If the pH rises, then there was high CO2 driving it down. It won't work in this case if it is the free floating bacteria in the water that is causing the issue, as that will still be in the gallon of water that you removed.

I'm still concerned that the tank is being overfed though.

The next rule-out is lack of sufficient mechanical filtration - if your filtration system isn't trapping small particles, they continue to circulate, keeping the water cloudy looking.

The final rule-out is to look down on the tank, not through the side glass. We had a case recently where we could not solve the cloudy water issue for a member. Turns out the water wasn't cloudy at all, there was just a bacterial film on the glass making it appear hazy.

Jay

Thanks Jay, I suspect you are correct about mechanical, and can happily confirm it's not the glass, same thought came to me a few weeks ago and I checked. What also concerned me is the Prazi. first bloom started right at the prazi doze, after the same daily feeding for 4 weeks.. so I didn't think it was just the food...

 

[alabella1]

Actually, we change the first post on this thread as needed to keep things updated.

Quarantine is a trade off between how well it works and how much effort it takes. Obviously, no quarantine at all is the easiest to do, but also the least effective, catching 0% of contagious issues. Our process is about a 90:10 or 80:20 - it catches most, but not all of potential issues. It does require a lot of work.

I had asked the Fish Medics a few weeks ago if I should also post a "quick and easy" quarantine method - one that perhaps catches 50% of the issues, but with only 20% of the effort. The consensus was a resounding NO. "In for a penny, in for a pound" as the old saying goes.

Jay

I can say I've been having better success with my newest QT and observation tanks. Fish are making it through the QT just fine but it's hard to not get impatient

 

[Reefer1978]

What's the protocol to sterilize the QT tank between treatments? Lost a full lot of animals in latest QT run, and what ever is in the tank I don't want to transfer to the next inhabitants.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

What's the protocol to sterilize the QT tank between treatments? Lost a full lot of animals in latest QT run, and what ever is in the tank I don't want to transfer to the next inhabitants.

For a successful quarantine run, there is no need to sterilize the tank, since the fish that were moved out are "clean", then so is the tank. In cases where the quarantine failed and active disease took out the fish, yes, you are correct that the tank needs to be sterilized or allowed to lay fallow. Exactly how to do that depends on the disease involved.

Do you know what the fish died from?

Jay

 

[Reefer1978]

For a successful quarantine run, there is no need to sterilize the tank, since the fish that were moved out are "clean", then so is the tank. In cases where the quarantine failed and active disease took out the fish, yes, you are correct that the tank needs to be sterilized or allowed to lay fallow. Exactly how to do that depends on the disease involved.

Do you know what the fish died from?

Jay

I do not Jay, but as you and I exchanged a few messages back and forth, random odd bacterial blooms + pH swings. No visible signs on fish, just sudden lack of eating, followed by death within a few days.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I do not Jay, but as you and I exchanged a few messages back and forth, random odd bacterial blooms + pH swings. No visible signs on fish, just sudden lack of eating, followed by death within a few days.

O.K., I recall that case....very strange.

I would sterilize that tank. You can do that with pure bleach (no perfumes or surfactants) at 500 ppm. To do that, drain the tank and fill it with tap water, and start up all the filters. Then dose the bleach like this: 500 multiplied by the tank volume in gallons divided by 266 = milliliters of bleach to use. So - a 50 gallon tank would be 500 * 50 / 266 = 94 ml of bleach. Let it soak for 24 hours wiht the filters running. Drain and rinse everything off.

Jay

 

[KyleC]

Probably an obvious question... but if I have a 75g DT that gets ich.. fish need moved to QT for copper treatment, and DT needs to run fallow for 76 days... question is, the QT can't hold all my DT fish... it's only 20g... so basically if I get ich in my DT again... realistically I'd need a similar size tank to QT in?

Also, someone recently told me they dosed their DT with hydrogen peroxide daily to treat for ich (until signs were gone) and it always worked? They had fish, corals and inverts. Maybe hydrogen peroxide is more feasible given a 75g DT and 20g QT?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Probably an obvious question... but if I have a 75g DT that gets ich.. fish need moved to QT for copper treatment, and DT needs to run fallow for 76 days... question is, the QT can't hold all my DT fish... it's only 20g... so basically if I get ich in my DT again... realistically I'd need a similar size tank to QT in?

Also, someone recently told me they dosed their DT with hydrogen peroxide daily to treat for ich (until signs were gone) and it always worked? They had fish, corals and inverts. Maybe hydrogen peroxide is more feasible given a 75g DT and 20g QT?

Hydrogen peroxide is tough to dose, I don't recommend using it. It is an experimental treatment, and those recommending it are in effect experimenting on YOUR fish. The only time I would suggest it is when a person is attempting what is called "ich management" - as an adjunct treatment to a whole suite of efforts:

1) strong UV sterilizer
2) frequent water changes
3) siphoning the sand early every morning
4) good mechanical filtration to remove theronts
5) low dose peroxide additions

Ich management works if you catch the infection early enough and do it right. Once the number of trophonts on the fish reach a certain point (perhaps 30 or so spots on any one fish) then "propagule pressure" comes into play, where the effects of the trophonts themselves stresses the fish and the ich management techniques start to fail.

The history of peroxide use goes like this: a paper was published showing how 75 ppm peroxide baths would eliminate Amyloodinium on Pacific threadfin fish. These fish were cured if the dips were done twice and the fish moved to clean tanks each time. Somebody read that and thought, "Hmmm, I wonder if low dose peroxide used as a static bath would work on ich?" They then began pushing the idea out there as an "experiment". The problem is that peroxide at levels high enough to kill ich theronts can also harm the beneficial bacteria, and sometimes ornamental shrimp. Additionally, peroxide is an oxidizer. Like all of these (chlorine, ozone, permanganate etc.) the level of active chemical in the water is related to the organic levels. The less organics in the water, the higher the active dose. As you add peroxide, it consumes organics, causing a rise in unreacted peroxide. So - you need to use test strips to monitor that change.

Here is an article I wrote that discusses some of that:

Hydrogen Peroxide Bench-testing

Bench testing of the effects of hydrogen peroxide in aquariums.

www.reef2reef.com

Jay

 

[KyleC]

Hydrogen peroxide is tough to dose, I don't recommend using it. It is an experimental treatment, and those recommending it are in effect experimenting on YOUR fish. The only time I would suggest it is when a person is attempting what is called "ich management" - as an adjunct treatment to a whole suite of efforts:

1) strong UV sterilizer
2) frequent water changes
3) siphoning the sand early every morning
4) good mechanical filtration to remove theronts
5) low dose peroxide additions

Ich management works if you catch the infection early enough and do it right. Once the number of trophonts on the fish reach a certain point (perhaps 30 or so spots on any one fish) then "propagule pressure" comes into play, where the effects of the trophonts themselves stresses the fish and the ich management techniques start to fail.

The history of peroxide use goes like this: a paper was published showing how 75 ppm peroxide baths would eliminate Amyloodinium on Pacific threadfin fish. These fish were cured if the dips were done twice and the fish moved to clean tanks each time. Somebody read that and thought, "Hmmm, I wonder if low dose peroxide used as a static bath would work on ich?" They then began pushing the idea out there as an "experiment". The problem is that peroxide at levels high enough to kill ich theronts can also harm the beneficial bacteria, and sometimes ornamental shrimp. Additionally, peroxide is an oxidizer. Like all of these (chlorine, ozone, permanganate etc.) the level of active chemical in the water is related to the organic levels. The less organics in the water, the higher the active dose. As you add peroxide, it consumes organics, causing a rise in unreacted peroxide. So - you need to use test strips to monitor that change.

Here is an article I wrote that discusses some of that:

Hydrogen Peroxide Bench-testing

Bench testing of the effects of hydrogen peroxide in aquariums.

www.reef2reef.com

Jay

Thanks Jay - if it's still in it's experimental phases then I think I'll hold off. More for future reference for when I stock my 75g with fish after fallow is over.

What size QT would I need if my whole 75g tank got ich and had to go fallow again? I plan on having 2 clowns, 1 chromis, royal gramma, and possibly a couple more fish. My 20g would suffice for new fish before going into the DT, but not to QT all my DT fish should I be unlucky to get ich again.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Thanks Jay - if it's still in it's experimental phases then I think I'll hold off. More for future reference for when I stock my 75g with fish after fallow is over.

What size QT would I need if my whole 75g tank got ich and had to go fallow again? I plan on having 2 clowns, 1 chromis, royal gramma, and possibly a couple more fish. My 20g would suffice for new fish before going into the DT, but not to QT all my DT fish should I be unlucky to get ich again.

Five fish could be quarantined in a 20 gallon long tank, but a 30 long (not a 29 gallon) would be better. The key point is to have a solid biological filter on the QT before you put fish in it....it is high ammonia, not swimming space that causes issues with QT.

Jay

 

[KyleC]

Five fish could be quarantined in a 20 gallon long tank, but a 30 long (not a 29 gallon) would be better. The key point is to have a solid biological filter on the QT before you put fish in it....it is high ammonia, not swimming space that causes issues with QT.

Jay

Ah ok. Gotcha. I have a HOB filter... but not alot of sponge fits in it... would floating a sponge in the QT serve to add more SA for bacteria?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Ah ok. Gotcha. I have a HOB filter... but not alot of sponge fits in it... would floating a sponge in the QT serve to add more SA for bacteria?

Floating sponges and putting other bacteria substrates into the tank can help, but passive flow through them isn't very effective, they work best is water is pulled through them via a filter/pump.

Jay