CUSTOM Sump with Fluorescent Rim, possible commercial production

[JohnGP]

Very glad you mentioned this, I looked more into this and I am reading the thickness matters, so 1/4" up will have a smaller chance of bowing, so I will be adding baffle to lid supports. I will be changing the lids from 1/8" to 1/4", it won't sit flush, but it will be an area to finish with the cutout waste portion from the lip that the lid sits on. I will be addressing all of these problems with the prototype as it happens so I can't tell you how much I appreciate the foresight. I am working with consulting from a large local reef shop manager, who tells me the dirty secret issues they deal with different brand sumps, and how to fix it

Hi Mason,
He is correct, it will most likely warp. I made some nice lids for my Bashsea sump and used 1/4" acrylic and they looked great-for about two weeks. They warped pretty badly and are now useless. I have an acrylic tank and the overflow box has an acrylic lid that is pretty thick, I'm not home to measure it at the moment but I'd guess it's 3/8" with another piece welded underneath it for I guess bracing, and it too warped within a few weeks.

Anyway; here are a couple of photos just after I made the lids for my sump, unfortunately I do not have any pics after they warped.

 

[Mason Michalski]

Hi Mason,
He is correct, it will most likely warp. I made some nice lids for my Bashsea sump and used 1/4" acrylic and they looked great-for about two weeks. They warped pretty badly and are now useless. I have an acrylic tank and the overflow box has an acrylic lid that is pretty thick, I'm not home to measure it at the moment but I'd guess it's 3/8" with another piece welded underneath it for I guess bracing, and it too warped within a few weeks.

Anyway; here are a couple of photos just after I made the lids for my sump, unfortunately I do not have any pics after they warped.

This feedback is awesome! Can't tell you how much I appreciate stuff like this

So some questions for you if you remember! Did you go with extruded or cell cast acrylic? What company did you end up using for the acrylic? (Chemcast verse Arkema, etc) how big was the spot the lid was over? (LxW) Curious to see what the top dogs make their lids out of, or if a determining factor is the quality of the acrylic, the type, and the area of what they are trying to cover without supports. I have changed my baffles to reach up and bond to the rim in everywhere applicable, so I am hoping that the lids will have enough support and are of the correct size to mediate bowing in the middle.

my lids are at the biggest 11"x3 1/2"for a spot in the refugium where a bulkhead goes. From what I understand, you covered the entire sump with that lid? size of what it is covering unsupported could be a huge factor!

I am going to look heavily into what material to use for lids to prevent bowing (a nice polished plastic or something of that nature)

Thanks again and by all means I appreciate you adding to the thread

 

[JohnGP]

My sump is the Bashsea Signature Series SMS-4815 so the external dimensions are 48L x 15W x 16H. I got the acrylic from a local plastic supplier and it wasn't cheap, I think it was like $60 for the sheet I used for the lid. I wish I could remember what type of acrylic I used but unfortunately I don't, sorry about that. I swear I remember reading some where that Polycarbonate won't warp but could be completely wrong, I'm getting old and can't seem to remember much these days! lol

If you don't need to see through the lid you might take a look at the HPDE or PVC sheets they sell in stores like Home Depot. It is quite a bit easier to work with and won't warp. Sorry I can't be of more help...

 

[Mason Michalski]

My sump is the Bashsea Signature Series SMS-4815 so the external dimensions are 48L x 15W x 16H. I got the acrylic from a local plastic supplier and it wasn't cheap, I think it was like $60 for the sheet I used for the lid. I wish I could remember what type of acrylic I used but unfortunately I don't, sorry about that. I swear I remember reading some where that Polycarbonate won't warp but could be completely wrong, I'm getting old and can't seem to remember much these days! lol

If you don't need to see through the lid you might take a look at the HPDE or PVC sheets they sell in stores like Home Depot. It is quite a bit easier to work with and won't warp. Sorry I can't be of more help...

So, talking with some high end sump reps, one of the methods is welding 3 cast acrylic sheets together for a final thickness of 5/8ths, not including any handle included as support. I am having a hard time of imagining why this works other than the fact that it is just super thick lol

One of my theories, although when welding, I thought it becomes one piece? BUT I imagine the first layer takes the abuse of the water, while the 2nd and 3rd layer stay rigid

 

[JohnGP]

Hmmm, well that's beyond my knowledge but it sounds feasible. If I was you I'd look at those plastic PVC sheets, I think they come in white or gray. They'd be much less trouble, wouldn't warp and for around $75 you can get a 4 x 8 sheet that is 1/2" thick.

 

[Mason Michalski]

Hmmm, well that's beyond my knowledge but it sounds feasible. If I was you I'd look at those plastic PVC sheets, I think they come in white or gray. They'd be much less trouble, wouldn't warp and for around $75 you can get a 4 x 8 sheet that is 1/2" thick.

Yeah looks like my supplier sells it in the color I want too! Would be a nice alternative. I am going today to check the look of it out, thank you for the advice! Much cheaper than going 5/8"'acrylic, I am already doing high quality acrylic all the way around, these lids being pvc could save on the build.

 

[Mason Michalski]

Well, I am super torn on if I want to move the refugium section into the area where the ATO/Return is, or keep it where it at. Running it 75/25 (75 of the water going to the socks/skimmer/reactor, and 25% going to the refugium) is something I was suggested a lot, so that is why I opted to have the refugium almost act separately of the filtration chamber so that micro-fauna could thrive off any detritus or food that made it into the refugium.

Edit: I think I am going to include a circular cutout in the rim of the return pump area, that way cord management will look prettier as that was my main issue with the late stages of my design. Thankfully my 3D modeler is willing to make changes at any time.

 

[Mason Michalski]

Update:

I am going to actually do a second line available to those where the ATO Reservoir is removed, and effectively adding to the refugium and skimmer chambers, more likely the former. Simple tweak to the model, saved as a new 3D file, and bam! We now have 2 options. 3D models got pushed out to Friday as my 3D Modeler took some time for a huge project. Don't blame him! Kind of want to learn vector work myself

 

[Mason Michalski]

for anyone interested in how I will ship these if the demand occurs, read this! https://www.melevsreef.com/articles/shipping-a-sump

 

[Mason Michalski]

3D model files done! First prototype coming this weeks


Cutout waste is made into the 2x 4" filter sock holder, the grate that will hold the bio media, handles for the ATO and filter sock lids, and the solvent bonded lips that these two cutouts will sit on for removal, allowing you to access the chamber. Also, 4x 1/4" dosing holes as well as 1" holes for cord management

 

[Mason Michalski]

And here is the baffles and the lids!

 

[DaddyFish]

So what's your final decision on lid material? Previous posts are spot-on about single-layer acrylic warping. I've had trouble with 1/4" acrylic lids as small as 2" x 14" warping if the ambient room temperature is more than 10F below water temp. I've also used 3/4 square acrylic tubing laminated to the same size lids and it still warps!
I've been using this material available from Home Depot for a while now. It makes excellent tank covers and lids. You might want to consider it.
Clear Polycarbonate Greenhouse Panel at Home Depot

 

[coseal]

polycarbonate or pvc are really going to be the only choices he has, outside of some exotics. but keep in mind his end goal was a sub 500$ sump system using north american cell cast acrylic.. and poly anything is expensive

 

[Mason Michalski]

So what's your final decision on lid material? Previous posts are spot-on about single-layer acrylic warping. I've had trouble with 1/4" acrylic lids as small as 2" x 14" warping if the ambient room temperature is more than 10F below water temp. I've also used 3/4 square acrylic tubing laminated to the same size lids and it still warps!
I've been using this material available from Home Depot for a while now. It makes excellent tank covers and lids. You might want to consider it.
Clear Polycarbonate Greenhouse Panel at Home Depot

I will definitely pursue the best material I can for the lids if I decide that the PVC sheet doesn't fit the quality I am going for. I want this sump to be to the point where I practically take the doors off my stand

polycarbonate or pvc are really going to be the only choices he has, outside of some exotics. but keep in mind his end goal was a sub 500$ sump system using north american cell cast acrylic.. and poly anything is expensive

Spot on! Man it has been nothing this first week of November but calling Acrylic places near by, and boy...do we somehow have a lot of them I guess? Who knew. One of them tried quoting me with Chemcast....I didn't even bother responding after that lol. My biggest fear is going low quality and it shattering or busting a seam, talk about tanking a brand. For now it is more than likely going to be the best looking PVC I can find, which I meet with Plexicase Tuesday here in Michigan to go over a package deal for acrylic and the CNC work. Hope I have something done this upcoming week.

 

[coseal]

just curious what your aversion is to chemcast?

 

[Mason Michalski]

just curious what your aversion is to chemcast?

Chemcast is so brittle and shatters easily under the type of pressure that water would have in a sump setting.

 

[coseal]

ok.....

 

[Mason Michalski]

ok.....

Did I say something bad lol???

 

[coseal]

nope, just acknowledging your reply.

you started this thread asking for help and feedback and 3 pages later voicing a very strong opinion on one manufacturer of material and pressure levels in a sump just seems a bit quick to judgement. not tryin to rustle your jimmies or anything!

i know you are excited about this idea you have, and are in full blown research mode and likely basing that comment on someone's opinion. IMO you should pick a fabricator and ask "he/she" what "they" like to use. explain your goal's to them...see what they think? then go from there. if you are in fact going to do your own fabrication then get some samples of the different brands cut,polish,sand,glue etc and pick one for yourself.

 

[Mason Michalski]

nope, just acknowledging your reply.

you started this thread asking for help and feedback and 3 pages later voicing a very strong opinion on one manufacturer of material and pressure levels in a sump just seems a bit quick to judgement. not tryin to rustle your jimmies or anything!

i know you are excited about this idea you have, and are in full blown research mode and likely basing that comment on someone's opinion. IMO you should pick a fabricator and ask "he/she" what "they" like to use. explain your goal's to them...see what they think? then go from there. if you are in fact going to do your own fabrication then get some samples of the different brands cut,polish,sand,glue etc and pick one for yourself.

No I understand where you are coming from, thankfully I have access to someone with contacts in the sump industry since they own a service shop, so I get to hear all about what materials not to use. Also, a quick search online can vouch for the fact that chemcast is black listed in the sump industry. I am meeting with Plexicase Tuesday to do just that in fact so I am excited to come closer to a final physical proto-type.