Cyano going to cause me to shut down my tank

[Belgian Anthias]

From the link



Wunderbar. I sometimes use that method when I start a system because it brings in nitrification bacteria too. I store the liquid in my refrigerator and add a little every day for tree weeks. I had never thought that it could be good for establish a good micro population too. With this method I use to have a fish and a cleaning crew already day 3 - 4 after start.

I have never seen this article before but it is mostly like I could have written it by myself - very good. Thank you @Belgian Anthias.

Sincerely Lasse

The use of soil was published in The Bible for the marine aquarists:
Frank De Graaf, 1969. Handboek voor het tropisch zeeaquarium, Tweede druk. ed. A.J.G. Strengholt N.V. Amsterdam.
Published in English in the USA:
Graaf, F. de, 1973. Marine Aquarium guide. Pet Library, Harrison, N.J. This book contains all information about the so called Dutch system, UV light, protein skimmers, algae scrubbers, lighting, information still actual for modern reef systems.
One must take in account that most marine bacteria are different from soil bacteria, especially the nitrifiers. This information was not available in 1969.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

Adding modified Guillard's f/2 solution may be a better option. For those who want to lower nitrate and phosphate, the solution may be obtained with lowered nitrogen and phosphorus levels.
The product, generally used in aquaculture, will provide all elements for pico- and phytho- plankton growth, this way installing and/or maintaining the primary food chain and its grazers, including cyano grazers. When the increased protein production is incorporated into the feeding schema ( fish will eat the produced algae and grazers) nutrient levels can be controlled by adding the solution. Depletion of the minerals and other building materials can be prevented, the levels controlled.

 

[brandon429]

For sure over time I'll have multiple cyano challenge tanks seeing this thread so keep the momentum going for ideas, it's going to help save tanks from losses. if any of my message friends run these approaches we'll keep the progress logged here so it's in one place. this thread gets out to many pages within a few years...more than one application of the ideas being generated and collected, which is post gold.

 

[Lasse]

One must take in account that most marine bacteria are different from soil bacteria, especially the nitrifiers. This information was not available in 1969.

Do not write this in Swedish - our saltwater tanks do not know this and therefore it really works here. I (and others) have testet it many times. Once i had an small - 60 litres tank - old school back in 1978 - UG filter and one of the first EHEIM hang on filters - no skimmer -- my first saltwater attempt - I measured the NO2 in the morning (it was important in those days even for saltwater - at least we thought that) - it was out of scale - more than 2 ppm. I test the trick with soil as described. At noon - the NO2 concentration was 1 ppm and 16 o´clock - it was totally gone. Of cause - I did not have any control - it could have happen even without adding this but the NO2 level had been out of scale for more than 3 weeks before this day. after this - I have use this trick both for fresh and saltwater aquaria in the start up. There can be other specialized nitrifications strains in saltwater but the normal (existing in soil) works too according to mine experiences

Can you describe the Guillard's f/2 solution in English - you link was in Flemish (I suppose) och jag förstår inte flamländska

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Sallstrom]

Do not write this in Swedish - our saltwater tanks do not know this and therefore it really works here. I (and others) have testet it many times. Once i had an small - 60 litres tank - old school back in 1978 - UG filter and one of the first EHEIM hang on filters - no skimmer -- my first saltwater attempt - I measured the NO2 in the morning (it was important in those days even for saltwater - at least we thought that) - it was out of scale - more than 2 ppm. I test the trick with soil as described. At noon - the NO2 concentration was 1 ppm and 16 o´clock - it was totally gone. Of cause - I did not have any control - it could have happen even without adding this but the NO2 level had been out of scale for more than 3 weeks before this day. after this - I have use this trick both for fresh and saltwater aquaria in the start up. There can be other specialized nitrifications strains in saltwater but the normal (existing in soil) works too according to mine experiences

Can you describe the Guillard's f/2 solution in English - you link was in Flemish (I suppose) och jag förstår inte flamländska

Sincerely Lasse

I have the recipe if you like @Lasse
Or you can find the solution in the fridge at work. It's the nutrients we use in our phytoplankton cultures

 

[Belgian Anthias]

Do not write this in Swedish - our saltwater tanks do not know this and therefore it really works here. I (and others) have testet it many times. Once i had an small - 60 litres tank - old school back in 1978 - UG filter and one of the first EHEIM hang on filters - no skimmer -- my first saltwater attempt - I measured the NO2 in the morning (it was important in those days even for saltwater - at least we thought that) - it was out of scale - more than 2 ppm. I test the trick with soil as described. At noon - the NO2 concentration was 1 ppm and 16 o´clock - it was totally gone. Of cause - I did not have any control - it could have happen even without adding this but the NO2 level had been out of scale for more than 3 weeks before this day. after this - I have use this trick both for fresh and saltwater aquaria in the start up. There can be other specialized nitrifications strains in saltwater but the normal (existing in soil) works too according to mine experiences

Can you describe the Guillard's f/2 solution in English - you link was in Flemish (I suppose) och jag förstår inte flamländska

Sincerely Lasse

The link is my reference and in Dutch ( Flemish) Most references used in the article are in English and accessible for reading.

Just google Guillard's f/2 solution.

Most marine nitrifiers are different from fresh water nitrifiers. This includes the marine Archaea which are resposible for +- 50% of nitrification in marine biofilters.

 

[Lasse]

Most marine nitrifiers are different from fresh water nitrifiers. This includes the marine Archaea which are resposible for +- 50% of nitrification in marine biofilters.

What I understand - Archaea is common even in soil and it is only doing the ammonia oxidizing step (NH3/NH4 -> NO2)

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Potatohead]

I wish I could get my paws on this tank right before you tear it down.



If you are willing to follow the steps for removing all the detritus in your tank then you'll be uninvaded, seems simple enough. Could be big work on your part, but I'd relish the opportunity. some tuners are able to fix your cyano having nothing to do with detritus, they deserve a go at nutrient tuning/my vote. can you post an updated tank pic


I just linked the most powerful eyes in reefing to this thread, even if you don't want to manually de cloud the sand, and rocks, and take kill steps on the target the number of people now linked to this thread are about to fix it up alternatively using powerful aquarium techniques

I don’t know how I can possibly remove all detritus more than I have. My sand bed is only 1-1.5” and I have a goby that sifts it all day long. I stir it up probably once a week as well, and blow off the rocks at the same time. If that is not good enough this is not going to work long term.

My advises - that I can still give you - is still the same as in post 35 - only thing I would add is that I would not use any carbon dosing at this moment. Are you still using NoPoX ? Have you done any Triton test (or from any other firm testing that way?)

Or you can follow Brandon428 path to clean everything for detritus (and stay there for the whole life of the aquarium).

In short either add biodiversity which competes with cyanobacteria about the resources in the detritus , or cleans the tank from all detritus all the time

Both methods will sooner or later end in a well looking aquaria but chose one path and stay there is important - to mix methods - its normally ends bad.

Sincerely Lasse

The only thing I have been dosing is calcium/alkalinity and using chaeto. I didn’t start doing anything with nutrients until this green cyano started going nuts about three or four weeks ago. It started maybe six weeks ago and has progressively gotten worse.

 

[Potatohead]

I agree on @Lasse's post 35.
But I would also try even harder to keep everything you can control as stable as possible. Sure, maybe vacuum out the mats of cyano once to get a good start, but after that I would keep my hands dry.
So here are things I think might favour cyano, directly or indirectly
.
Changes in light - both time and colour schedule.
Temperature swings
Changing water - another change in the aquarium. Maybe try a period without changing water?
Medicines/other treatments that kill of organisms in the tank.
KH swings

As for the nutrients, I would aim for 5-10ppm nitrate and 0,05-0,1ppm phosphate. But don't chase those numbers too fast, take it slow and let the tank take its time to tune itself.
When you reached those numbers try to stay as stable as possible at those levels.
Make sure you have enough PO4 in the water if you use a carbon source to lower the NO3.

And get some grazers that eats hair algae. Hair algae isn't something bad, they pretty much like the same conditions as most corals do. So to get rid of them by starving them etc I believe might be bad for the corals as well. To erase them with chemicals only open up that space for new things, which might turn out to be worse. The coralline algae you want instead are not an opportunist, they need time and stable conditions as well as the corals.

Okey, my thought was to not add that much to Lasse's post. But I got carried away, so I will stop now
And all this is just my thoughts on how to handle problems like these. I'm sure it can be solved in other ways too, but this is what I have found help in "my" tanks.

I have not changed a thing with the tank in a long time. My lighting has literally never been touched other than bulb changes for about 18 months or more. Six hours of full t5 and 90 minutes on each end of dusk/dawn.

Temp is dead stable between 77.5 and 78.2 which is the swing of my controller. In the summer it may get up to 79 mid day for a few weeks.

Water changes I have tried lots and I have tried none for three weeks or so, no major difference it seems.

Chemiclean I have tried a long while back but it just came back again.

Alk always between 7.4 and 7.9 as long as I can remember, never swings more than .3 or .4 in a week.

I was trying to get my phosphate to that level but adding phosphate just seems to feed it. I think the phos is so low because of that. Problem is how do I get it back up without feeding it? Manual removal is all I can figure.

I do have a bunch of cerith and trochus snails, and a yellow tang. The tang does a good job at the algae on the rocks, it is way less than it was about six months ago. Even the stuff he doesn’t get that’s right against the rocks I can tell it’s dying back because it turns white. Maybe that’s feeding the cyano too, I don’t know.

 

[Scrubber_steve]

I don’t know how I can possibly remove all detritus more than I have. My sand bed is only 1-1.5” and I have a goby that sifts it all day long. I stir it up probably once a week as well, and blow off the rocks at the same time. If that is not good enough this is not going to work long term.

I've noted this, & it goes some way into debunking Brandon's hypothesis that detritus build up is the cause of cyano.

 

[Sallstrom]

I have not changed a thing with the tank in a long time. My lighting has literally never been touched other than bulb changes for about 18 months or more. Six hours of full t5 and 90 minutes on each end of dusk/dawn.

Temp is dead stable between 77.5 and 78.2 which is the swing of my controller. In the summer it may get up to 79 mid day for a few weeks.

Water changes I have tried lots and I have tried none for three weeks or so, no major difference it seems.

Chemiclean I have tried a long while back but it just came back again.

Alk always between 7.4 and 7.9 as long as I can remember, never swings more than .3 or .4 in a week.

I was trying to get my phosphate to that level but adding phosphate just seems to feed it. I think the phos is so low because of that. Problem is how do I get it back up without feeding it? Manual removal is all I can figure.

I do have a bunch of cerith and trochus snails, and a yellow tang. The tang does a good job at the algae on the rocks, it is way less than it was about six months ago. Even the stuff he doesn’t get that’s right against the rocks I can tell it’s dying back because it turns white. Maybe that’s feeding the cyano too, I don’t know.

Okey, sound like most things are stable all ready. That's great!

One thing I think sounds strange is that the hair algae turns white and dies off. They usually likes the same parameters as corals. So I would recommend a ICP test just to see if there's something else in the water causing the problems with the corals. It might be something else, not connected directly to cyanobateria bloom.

Your high nitrate might be beacause the lack of phosphate. I read that you already tried adding phosphate. I would try it again. Over a long period, try to find a daily dose to keep the PO4 at the same meassurable level for a long time. And also add a carbon source daily.
We do the same right now, adding KH2PO4 and ethanol by dosing pump to lower the nitrate. But thats in 26000 litre water, so it's a lot easier to go slow and keep stable values Last summer we got some cyano in this tank but it went away when we discovered that the phosphate was very low and we started adding KH2PO4.
But this requires regular meassurments of PO4 and NO3 otherwise I would not recommend this method. It can take some time to adjust the carbon source and PO4-addetive so the PO4 stays still while the NO3 decreases.
And try small small doses, and think of this lowering of the nitrate as a long term project. at least 2-3 month.

No. I don't think you get more hair algae if you add phosphate. But I can't say for sure. Nothing we do is 100%, I can only say what my guess is I would recommend a sea urchin if you want more grazers to eat hair algae.
This is my thought on hair algae. They like the same water and light as most corals. So mess with those parameters and you might also harm your corals(and the stability of the biology of the tank). Instead I like to outcompete them by using grazers(and sometimes help remove some manually). Finally the grazers eat more algae than what grows back. And space become open for coralline algae. Once those algae start grow they'll hopefully take up the space and the hair algae won't come back.

 

[brandon429]

Couch
Detritus in the rocks

If you reach down into any invaded tank, grab a rock with pumps off, Shake it, a cloud of both invader and detritus will come off, we’d have to get those rocks clean. A recurring theme in nearly all cyano/spirulina sustained invasions is the invader always seats above detritus. For example, even though your water touches all aspects of the inner tank, the cyano isn’t growing on the glass I bet, it’s extracting feed by sitting atop its source. a recurring theme in problem invasions is that you can easily siphon off that top layer of unanchored mat, pick up the rock it was on, shake it underwater, and a cloud of feed emits

Pm me pics if poss it helps me to see unstated details in the invasion...locus...bioloading and lighting etc (where too much white and not near enough blue is highly implicated in problems as well)

Happy your thread has good momentum I learned a new trick in the first three update posts

 

[Potatohead]

Okey, sound like most things are stable all ready. That's great!

One thing I think sounds strange is that the hair algae turns white and dies off. They usually likes the same parameters as corals. So I would recommend a ICP test just to see if there's something else in the water causing the problems with the corals. It might be something else, not connected directly to cyanobateria bloom.

Your high nitrate might be beacause the lack of phosphate. I read that you already tried adding phosphate. I would try it again. Over a long period, try to find a daily dose to keep the PO4 at the same meassurable level for a long time. And also add a carbon source daily.
We do the same right now, adding KH2PO4 and ethanol by dosing pump to lower the nitrate. But thats in 26000 litre water, so it's a lot easier to go slow and keep stable values Last summer we got some cyano in this tank but it went away when we discovered that the phosphate was very low and we started adding KH2PO4.
But this requires regular meassurments of PO4 and NO3 otherwise I would not recommend this method. It can take some time to adjust the carbon source and PO4-addetive so the PO4 stays still while the NO3 decreases.
And try small small doses, and think of this lowering of the nitrate as a long term project. at least 2-3 month.

No. I don't think you get more hair algae if you add phosphate. But I can't say for sure. Nothing we do is 100%, I can only say what my guess is I would recommend a sea urchin if you want more grazers to eat hair algae.
This is my thought on hair algae. They like the same water and light as most corals. So mess with those parameters and you might also harm your corals(and the stability of the biology of the tank). Instead I like to outcompete them by using grazers(and sometimes help remove some manually). Finally the grazers eat more algae than what grows back. And space become open for coralline algae. Once those algae start grow they'll hopefully take up the space and the hair algae won't come back.

I do have an ICP test at home, I have just been waiting to see things get better before sending it in. Maybe that's dumb, lol.

I use Fauna Marin Balling Light as my calcium/alkalinity, so I pay attention to their Facebook page a bit, and I have heard Claude Schumacher there mention he also believes nitrate is more of a fuel for algae than phosphate is. I have also seen Hans Werner Balling say the same thing on here, so I'm sure there definite truth to that.

The problem I seem to be having is that the cyano is likely consuming phosphate. When I had level .04-.05 and Nitrate around 5 I had no cyano, or very little. It started slowly creeping in and I figured it would just rebalance and go away. Since then the spread between nitrate and phosphate continues to grow and cyano keeps getting worse. So I am almost certain the cyano is consuming phosphate and causing imbalance. I think the only think I can do is manually remove cyano, continue to dose phosphate and carbon and hope the dentrifying bacteria will start to outcompete the cyanobacteria. I hope I am right.

 

[Potatohead]

Also if Randy is reading this or if anyone knows, is it possible to mix trisodium phosphate solution with Nopox or white vinegar together so I can put them on my last dosing head?

Thanks

 

[Sallstrom]

I do have an ICP test at home, I have just been waiting to see things get better before sending it in. Maybe that's dumb, lol.

I use Fauna Marin Balling Light as my calcium/alkalinity, so I pay attention to their Facebook page a bit, and I have heard Claude Schumacher there mention he also believes nitrate is more of a fuel for algae than phosphate is. I have also seen Hans Werner Balling say the same thing on here, so I'm sure there definite truth to that.

The problem I seem to be having is that the cyano is likely consuming phosphate. When I had level .04-.05 and Nitrate around 5 I had no cyano, or very little. It started slowly creeping in and I figured it would just rebalance and go away. Since then the spread between nitrate and phosphate continues to grow and cyano keeps getting worse. So I am almost certain the cyano is consuming phosphate and causing imbalance. I think the only think I can do is manually remove cyano, continue to dose phosphate and carbon and hope the dentrifying bacteria will start to outcompete the cyanobacteria. I hope I am right.

Sounds like when PO4 or NO3 gets too low, that's when the cyano can outcompete the other organisms. And when you had okey values of both N and P, the cyano decreased.
So I think the idea of getting back to those values sounds like a good plan.

 

[Lasse]

I agree with most of what Sallstrom write but I am not convinced of the use of organic carbon - at least not any commercial product when you battle Cyanobacteria. I know that they only use ethanol and in low concentrations. I would not use combined products like NoPoX in this case. It has been reported that use of NoPoX build up the molybdenum concentration and at least Triton indicate that this can provoke cyanobacteria outbreak

I think that both Claude Schumacher and Hans Werner Balling mean normal micro algae and not cyanobacteria in this case. @Hans-Werner - correct me if I´m wrong.

You mentioned that your bulbs was 18 months old. There is reports (from Swedish reefers) that indicate that changing the bulbs can improve the situation. But they have don this together with mechanical removing the cyanobacteria mats. I do not believe in the theory about changing spectra but you never know,

This I think is the most powerful tool to use but if you can - do it every day in the evening. These cyanobacteria grow very fast and it will be a lot of them if the biomass is large enough. Let us say that the dubble their biomass during a 12 H cycle. You have 100 cells at start -> 200 cells after 12 H. Remove as much as possible at the end of the day and you will en up with fewer the end of day 2. Also . if you do not have many corals - shorter your light period - lesser production of cyano cells,

Another observation I made over the years is the temperature. When I have help friends with LFS - it is very often that the cyanobacteria is worse in the tanks close to the floor. (mostly observations of fresh water tanks). The only parameter that have differ in these cases has been the temperature. Your is around 25 degree C - maybe test 26 - 27 degree C - just an idea.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Sallstrom]

I agree with most of what Sallstrom write but I am not convinced of the use of organic carbon - at least not any commercial product when you battle Cyanobacteria. I know that they only use ethanol and in low concentrations. I would not use combined products like NoPoX in this case. It has been reported that use of NoPoX build up the molybdenum concentration and at least Triton indicate that this can provoke cyanobacteria outbreak

I think that both Claude Schumacher and Hans Werner Balling mean normal micro algae and not cyanobacteria in this case. @Hans-Werner - correct me if I´m wrong.

You mentioned that your bulbs was 18 months old. There is reports (from Swedish reefers) that indicate that changing the bulbs can improve the situation. But they have don this together with mechanical removing the cyanobacteria mats. I do not believe in the theory about changing spectra but you never know,

This I think is the most powerful tool to use but if you can - do it every day in the evening. These cyanobacteria grow very fast and it will be a lot of them if the biomass is large enough. Let us say that the dubble their biomass during a 12 H cycle. You have 100 cells at start -> 200 cells after 12 H. Remove as much as possible at the end of the day and you will en up with fewer the end of day 2. Also . if you do not have many corals - shorter your light period - lesser production of cyano cells,

Another observation I made over the years is the temperature. When I have help friends with LFS - it is very often that the cyanobacteria is worse in the tanks close to the floor. (mostly observations of fresh water tanks). The only parameter that have differ in these cases has been the temperature. Your is around 25 degree C - maybe test 26 - 27 degree C - just an idea.

Sincerely Lasse

So your saying he's gonna change a lot of things?! ;Nailbiting Okey, I'm with you on that. Now is the startup.
I also remembered the "old bulbs theory ". Not sure if i believe in it. But better do the changes now that later when the tank is more tuned in

I'm not so into manual removal, but that's because I hate it when they come back the next day. Done that too many times at work. Now I find it more rewarding to watch them slowly decrease while drinking coffee

I would also recommend using the ICP test. Good to know your water is okey or not.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

I do have an ICP test at home, I have just been waiting to see things get better before sending it in. Maybe that's dumb, lol.

I use Fauna Marin Balling Light as my calcium/alkalinity, so I pay attention to their Facebook page a bit, and I have heard Claude Schumacher there mention he also believes nitrate is more of a fuel for algae than phosphate is. I have also seen Hans Werner Balling say the same thing on here, so I'm sure there definite truth to that.

The problem I seem to be having is that the cyano is likely consuming phosphate. When I had level .04-.05 and Nitrate around 5 I had no cyano, or very little. It started slowly creeping in and I figured it would just rebalance and go away. Since then the spread between nitrate and phosphate continues to grow and cyano keeps getting worse. So I am almost certain the cyano is consuming phosphate and causing imbalance. I think the only think I can do is manually remove cyano, continue to dose phosphate and carbon and hope the dentrifying bacteria will start to outcompete the cyanobacteria. I hope I am right.

Most bacteria and algae prefer ammonia as a nitrogen source, also cyano, and if they can use up the phosphate ( in the immediate micro- surrounding) while taking up ammonia they will not use available nitrate. One can maintain aquaria with 300ppm nitrate without having a algae or cyano problem.
Dosing phosphate and carbon without all other building materials will deplete the system for minor elements and minerals.
I do not understand how denitrifiers may control or outcompete cyano's as they are not really competitors.

 

[Lasse]

I do not understand how denitrifiers may control or outcompete cyano's as they are not really competitors.

There is a theory about using DOC in order to grow normal aerobic heterotrophs. These heterotrophs will take up (according to the theory) P and N (in form of PO4 and NO3 in the water column) and will be taken away by the skimmer (this in the theory about using DOC to promote bacteria growth in aquaria ) I´m not so convinced of this theory because I suspect that most aerobic heterotroph bacteria that can use DOC as a fast carbon source are benthic and will use detritus and hence organic P and N in order to build biomass.

I would also recommend using the ICP test. Good to know your water is okey or not.

Agree with that

Sincerely Lasse

 

[brandon429]

where does it say detritus liberates avail carbon like something that goes into solution/same rapidity so that the buildup of biomass commands enough be impactful



since its an item of floc/aggregate particle, bacterial access to carbon seems limited by vital space and how many layers bac can stack before water shear carves them back down to a maximum+self regulation of the mass on the particle by other means of competition

using a liquid carbon source feeds every bac in solution awaiting a quick mealticket that doesn't take nine months to mineralize and release what it has, liquid vodka dosing in spec we don't relate to cyano invasions but I link detritus strongly to cyano invasions in the sand rinse thread with clean after pics.



I'd expect detritus via command/uptake to be disappearing to the point we'd have to buy special dosers to meter it back in if it was being used up doing something helpful. Since cyano and cousins access their own nitrogen from the air, po4 seems like the feed of the day and also why I get great results making rocks and sandbeds cloud free with big work and pre modeling before the whole job is done

(make a few rocks totally detritus free to compare to the ones you don't here, that's not big work its setting up your tank into zones of evaluation and my cleaning routine doesn't impact the other method of N and P tuning)