Cyano not responding to chemiclean

[tenurepro]

Hi all, had this cyano issue on my sand bed for the last few weeks.
It forms these stringy mats that grow back quickly after removal; also it doesn’t recede at night. I tried a chemiclean treatment, but it didn’t appear to do anything. I did the recommended 20% water change after 48h and redosed again today.
Now I am wondering if I got the ID wrong and I am dealing with something Other the cyano; pics below, what do your folks think?

 

[sfin52]

Are you sure it is cyano and not Dino. Do you have a microscope to identify.

 

[sfin52]

@mcarroll whats ur thoughts. I think it could be Dino but with me dealing with them, I may have Dino on the brain,

 

[SandJ]

Could be Spirulina also. There is a test you can do for it. Put some in a cup of water and see if it turns the water red. This can help determine if it is cyano or Spirulina (can’t remember which turns the water red).

 

[reefwiser]

 

[reeferfoxx]

A $10 microscope on amazon can help ID.

 

[mcarroll]

Now I am wondering if I got the ID wrong and I am dealing with something Other the cyano; pics below, what do your folks think?

Definitely get the scope mentioned!

Can you post your most recent complete set of test results, including N and P?

Is the tank fairly new?

What was the startup method?

It's pretty likely to be cyano+some other thing (or things) in most cyano blooms.....maybe in this case it was cyano and dino's (it's not unusual) and you whacked the cyano.

This will probably irritate the dino's as they may be depending on the cyano for their nutrients.

While we wait on the info above, I would suggest backing off of any "artificial" nutrient removal strategies like GFO or carbon dosing (vodka, vinegar, pellets, et al) until we get to the bottom of the situation.

 

[tenurepro]

Are you sure it is cyano and not Dino. Do you have a microscope to identify.

i do have a scope... what any links that show what dinos vs. cyano look like under the scope

 

[tenurepro]

Could be Spirulina also. There is a test you can do for it. Put some in a cup of water and see if it turns the water red. This can help determine if it is cyano or Spirulina (can’t remember which turns the water red).

i did do that test also; added mat, put in some hydrogen peroxide... water didn't change color and mat looked the same indicating spirulina... but i thought that spirulina reponds to chemiclean.

 

[tenurepro]

Definitely get the scope mentioned!

Can you post your most recent complete set of test results, including N and P?

Is the tank fairly new?

What was the startup method?

It's pretty likely to be cyano+some other thing (or things) in most cyano blooms.....maybe in this case it was cyano and dino's (it's not unusual) and you whacked the cyano.

This will probably irritate the dino's as they may be depending on the cyano for their nutrients.

While we wait on the info above, I would suggest backing off of any "artificial" nutrient removal strategies like GFO or carbon dosing (vodka, vinegar, pellets, et al) until we get to the bottom of the situation.

tank is 16 month old; redsea reefer 250, 65 gal; temp 79f; 8.3 dkh, 430 ppm cal, 1260 ppm mg, no3 1 ppm, po4 undetectable (Hanna ULR). I use RODI water and i changed the DI resin a month ago; 0 tds
i've been doing small daily water changes, and running some chaeto / GHA in a fuge. I feed the fish three times a day, but that's been going on for a year or so. Last month, i did overdo coral feeding after a little episode of sps color loss; i started dosing redsea colors additives (1 ml daily), reefroids (2x a week) and acropower (10ml, every other day).... i stopped that since adding the chemiclean.

 

[reeferfoxx]

Cyano looks like rope. Spirulina looks springy? Dinos look like little egg shaped flagelletes that move. Diatoms looks like rice or wheat grain.

 

[mcarroll]

i do have a scope... what any links that show what dinos vs. cyano look like under the scope

Google PhycoKey – an amazing ID guide

i did do that test also; added mat, put in some hydrogen peroxide... water didn't change color and mat looked the same indicating spirulina... but i thought that spirulina reponds to chemiclean.

I don't think that test really works. I took some of my cyano out and put it in a cup of saltwater under a lamp and forgot to put the H2O2 in. It still bled red.

I think in a lot of cases of mystery algae, you can assume there are cyano present – it's omnipresent in earth's atmosphere AFAIK. The question is what if anything else is growing with it.

tank is 16 month old; redsea reefer 250, 65 gal; temp 79f; 8.3 dkh, 430 ppm cal, 1260 ppm mg, no3 1 ppm, po4 undetectable (Hanna ULR). I use RODI water and i changed the DI resin a month ago; 0 tds
i've been doing small daily water changes, and running some chaeto / GHA in a fuge. I feed the fish three times a day, but that's been going on for a year or so. Last month, i did overdo coral feeding after a little episode of sps color loss; i started dosing redsea colors additives (1 ml daily), reefroids (2x a week) and acropower (10ml, every other day).... i stopped that since adding the chemiclean.

No carbon dosing or GFO? That's good!!!

However all those amino's carry a significant carbon source....maybe some other products too, not sure. This slants things toward nasties like dinoflagellates.

PO4 needs to be boosted up to 0.10 ppm when you can get a supplement.
NO3 I would boost to 5-10 ppm.

Test daily (or more at first, if you can) to make sure those values do not return to zero/near-zero. We'd like to see a small growth spurt on your green algae (or even cyano) as a good sign.

Dosing all those excess nutrients while there was no PO4 available is probably what is/was sending your system over the edge toward cyano and dino-land.

Lack of PO4 and NO3 was also probably behind the coral color loss in the first place.

You may have already run across this, but just in case:
A Nitrate Dosing Calculator For Better Tank Health (And Better Coral Color!)

Post some photos and a movie from your scope when you can!

To help with ID, check out either PhycoKey (as mentioned) or these links from the SI Department of Botany:

• Harmful Marine Dinoflagellates
• Dinoflagellate Types

@taricha may be able to help with ID too if you can't confirm, so post pics and movie like I said too.

 

[tenurepro]

what would be a good source of dosing phosphates ? wouldn't coral feeding increase po4? i did dose KNo3 previously, and it did improve coral colors, but it was short term.

i will check the stuff under the scope later today; i couple of tidbits:
1) the mat grew overnight (with no lights)... i thought that cyano can only grow during the day / lights on?
2) two days ago, my kole tang died, no obvious external infection, but he had a swollen belly and wasn't able to swim. Kole tangs do sift some sand... wonder now if i have dinos as i remember reading somewhere that they can be toxic to fish ?

i do have a youtube channel;
last tank update
my nitrate dosing experiment

 

[reeferfoxx]

what would be a good source of dosing phosphates ? wouldn't coral feeding increase po4? i did dose KNo3 previously, and it did improve coral colors, but it was short term.

i will check the stuff under the scope later today; i couple of tidbits:
1) the mat grew overnight (with no lights)... i thought that cyano can only grow during the day / lights on?
2) two days ago, my kole tang died, no obvious external infection, but he had a swollen belly and wasn't able to swim. Kole tangs do sift some sand... wonder now if i have dinos as i remember reading somewhere that they can be toxic to fish ?

i do have a youtube channel;
last tank update
my nitrate dosing experiment

We can only speculate and keep speculating. Getting the low down on the actions and reactions isn't going to help ID it. But with your earlier pictures presented, I am torn between diatoms and dinos. Both controlled completely differently. If you were to increase nutrients, it will spur new algae growth. Seems like you feed a lot and diatoms can grow with excessive nutrients. Where as dinos grow when nutrients are limited.

 

[tenurepro]

We can only speculate and keep speculating. Getting the low down on the actions and reactions isn't going to help ID it. But with your earlier pictures presented, I am torn between diatoms and dinos. Both controlled completely differently. If you were to increase nutrients, it will spur new algae growth. Seems like you feed a lot and diatoms can grow with excessive nutrients. Where as dinos grow when nutrients are limited.

will scope later this afternoon and report back

 

[tenurepro]

My dissecting scope at home is not very useful, but here

Will get pics with a compound scope later this after...
Brown circular blops, they don’t appear to be connected together in chains...

 

[Reefer1978]

Not cyano/spirulina, most likely dynos but you will know more with a much better picture.

 

[reeferfoxx]

My dissecting scope at home is not very useful, but here

Will get pics with a compound scope later this after...
Brown circular blops, they don’t appear to be connected together in chains...

Looks like dinos. A closer image will help ID the particular dino and help with the right treatment.

 

[tenurepro]

Ok here is a sketch of what they look like at 100x

 

[Reefer1978]

Ok here is a sketch of what they look like at 100x

No image got attached... can you try again?