Cycle complete

[JasonK84]

I recall a pet store in Amarillo called bubbles

That was last lfs I was in there, approx 1999 ish

There was a hobby shop on western or bell can’t recall that sold remote control airplanes, which then became the seeds of a decades long rc devotion. Drove from planview to that rc shop 200 times easy. It had a huge red top winger hanging prominently in the store

Bubbles has been gone for a long time. I had been in there a couple times and it looked great! It was gone by the time I was getting into saltwater in 2010. The RC/train Hobby store (Amarillo Hobby House) on Western was there until recently. I am also into RC. Cars, planes, drones. My current RC is a 1:5 scale buggy with 29cc weed eater engine.

Lone Star Aqua Farms is behind IHOP on western. It is my go to if I must make a trip to Amarillo. Smaller than fish pros but I like they people there.

Aqua Calm is also off of Western about 32nd street. They are very small and last I was there didn't look good. The grandmother that ran the place had been sick and wasn't there much. Her grandson was a big part of running it and he went off to school. It was the best little LFS and I was sad to see it's condition earlier this year.

And fish pros, pets mart, and petco

 

[JasonK84]

Not testing "0". My first surprise was with the test after dosing 5ml ammonia and only coming up with .5. It should have been well over 1 and close to 2ppm. Bottle says 1ml per 20 gallon to reach 2ppm. I've got a 40 gallon sump running half to 3/4 full plus dispersion I'd guess around 120-130 total water volume. I'll give it more time since I'm in no rush to kill anything.

 

[brandon429]

Sure deal lets test again in a bit. Last time when it went to zero how long did it take

 

[brandon429]

Reposting the prior just to have em close. I think it's lightened a bit in the pic above since yest. I'll be curious to see how it moves through today

thanks for the updates it's fun to chart this stuff. I'm flicking up then down, up then down with thumb to compare pics ha. The classic API colorimetry flick. On flick ten I'm like: there's some yellow, there's some yellow.

 

[JasonK84]

Sure deal lets test again in a bit. Last time when it went to zero how long did it take

Ammonia has been processing in 1.5 days but nitrites are taking much longer (3 or 4 days). I know it's getting close. I was just shocked yesterday when my nitrates were showing so low. Last I had tested they were reading around 40 and yesterday showing under 5.

 

[JasonK84]

Reposting the prior just to have em close. I think it's lightened a bit in the pic above since yest. I'll be curious to see how it moves through today

thanks for the updates it's fun to chart this stuff. I'm flicking up then down, up then down with thumb to compare pics ha. The classic API colorimetry flick. On flick ten I'm like: there's some yellow, there's some yellow.

It has definitely lightned with more of a yellow tint. Definitely not ready but getting there. I'd imagine 0 or very close when I test this afternoon.

 

[brandon429]

Some neat takeaways from our collection of cycles in the microbiology thread is that easily seen visual characters in a cycling reef accompany what bacteria do. We like to have things other than retail testers to gauge cycle times and completion

In this case, clouding. If you added that much ammonia on day one, with no bottle bac, your tank will cloud the next day. Happened in March to me when I was cycling my planted tank at first with nonliving surface area and decor

How would you classify your water clarity today? Looks nice in the first pic, if there was notable cloud vs not notable cloud today at lights on time, or any increment of detectable cloud
that's handy to compare since we're testing here to re show baselines.


In the end that's a no-test thread, we were looking for a way to escape the differences everyone with these ranging test kits reports. It's hard to get titrators to fill to the line consistently; to shake the reagent correctly, to take pics in clear lightning vs blue kitchen florescents or to the side of blue tank lighting, to wait long enough for the reading to be correct...color is totally subjective. But I'm liking your pics and increments shown, they're clear, helpful to re establish no test timelines given a certain set of boosters, time, and plenty of surface area.

If someone else in your city setup any size tank using the same basic arrangement of boosters, their tank meets the same cycling times you are about to uncover by testing, because microbes deposit in pretty well known timeframes.


Regarding your heavy purple nitrite, it must be said in fair balance not any poster here would agree that's cycled. I can find a link where the nitrite portion is going on seventy days, they refuse to proceed until APi nitrite allows it. Seventy days, with boosters used, ammonia complying forty days prior.

I do not include nitrite readings for reasons linked-too many adulterants avail (any use of prime water conditioner is a top one) and too much test variation between posters on a neutral param, so we kick it out. Collected and linked a few threads where Randy HF mentions he doesn't care to know nitrite, and why, Google charts show nitrite compliance at day forty when ammonia behaves, so many reasons I don't use it. We use very powerful doses of ammonia to cycle nowadays, and we test cumulative waste water. This is different than when those charts were made, but they're made from infallible rules of aquatic microbiology, I choose to go off ammonia testing solely when we test to curb false test issues, works fine. The thread has us never basing things on wastewater, cumulations of added items, but on freshly changed and redosed water so that strictly the surfaces area producing results; in my opinion in your case of no large water change only ammonia matters as it's testing clearly here and acting as it should. Regarding nitrate I'd have to see comparative testing to get a baseline, it's amazing how much testers can vary on the same sample. If some form of denitrification is outpacing nitrification it's neat, no telling what goodies had time to set in but testing variation still can't be ruled out, minor drifts that may or may not show on another tester.

 

[JasonK84]

Some neat takeaways from our collection of cycles in the microbiology thread is that easily seen visual characters in a cycling reef accompany what bacteria do. We like to have things other than retail testers to gauge cycle times and completion

In this case, clouding. If you added that much ammonia on day one, with no bottle bac, your tank will cloud the next day. Happened in March to me when I was cycling my planted tank at first with nonliving surface area and decor

How would you classify your water clarity today? Looks nice in the first pic, if there was notable cloud vs not notable cloud today at lights on time, or any increment of detectable cloud
that's handy to compare since we're testing here to re show baselines.


In the end that's a no-test thread, we were looking for a way to escape the differences everyone with these ranging test kits reports. It's hard to get titrators to fill to the line consistently; to shake the reagent correctly, to take pics in clear lightning vs blue kitchen florescents or to the side of blue tank lighting, to wait long enough for the reading to be correct...color is totally subjective. But I'm liking your pics and increments shown, they're clear, helpful to re establish no test timelines given a certain set of boosters, time, and plenty of surface area.

If someone else in your city setup any size tank using the same basic arrangement of boosters, their tank meets the same cycling times you are about to uncover by testing, because microbes deposit in pretty well known timeframes.


Regarding your heavy purple nitrite, it must be said in fair balance not any poster here would agree that's cycled. I can find a link where the nitrite portion is going on seventy days, they refuse to proceed until APi nitrite allows it. Seventy days, with boosters used, ammonia complying forty days prior.

I do not include nitrite readings for reasons linked-too many adulterants avail (any use of prime water conditioner is a top one) and too much test variation between posters on a neutral param, so we kick it out. Collected and linked a few threads where Randy HF mentions he doesn't care to know nitrite, and why, Google charts show nitrite compliance at day forty when ammonia behaves, so many reasons I don't use it. We use very powerful doses of ammonia to cycle nowadays, and we test cumulative waste water. This is different than when those charts were made, but they're made from infallible rules of aquatic microbiology, I choose to go off ammonia testing solely when we test to curb false test issues, works fine. The thread has us never basing things on wastewater, cumulations of added items, but on freshly changed and redosed water so that strictly the surfaces area producing results; in my opinion in your case of no large water change only ammonia matters as it's testing clearly here and acting as it should. Regarding nitrate I'd have to see comparative testing to get a baseline, it's amazing how much testers can vary on the same sample. If some form of denitrification is outpacing nitrification it's neat, no telling what goodies had time to set in but testing variation still can't be ruled out, minor drifts that may or may not show on another tester.

I didn't think much about it but the tank did seam more cloudy this morning. I just figured a film on the glass and I'd mag float it off this afternoon. The lights have been off since the beginning only turning them on a couple minutes here and there. Basically all I do with the tank is fill the top off reservoir once a week and test every couple days and redose once ammonia is back to zero. This last time I waited for nitrite to also be at zero before I Redosed.

This afternoon I'll retest and also include nitrate to see if anything happened there.

 

[JasonK84]

Found this picture in my deleted folder on my phone from October 21. Shows nitrates higher there than they are now.

 

[JasonK84]

Here is what it looks like now.

Ammonia gone or dang close, nitrites still at .5, and nitrates up to about 10-15ppm.

 

[brandon429]

Though I can't recall which page, we discussed in our thread that the movement away from set point is the important part. I can say in good faith if you changed as much of that water as you can stand to do as the ultimate end of cycle complement, then stocked lightly it will not crash. I don't know the upper limit of fish loading it could instantly take, but I suspect multiples.

Usually people are running a fallow approach and that builds more bac as the corals they add, new additions, bring in new active surface area. Your tank is of particular interest because you had to bring up your entire bacterial bed. I don't see live rock if I've read correctly, so now you have precise control over invaders and hitchhikers. Very nice, we want to track its reading as you complete ammonia logs.

After the big WC, in my opinion you could stock some light fish that are ready, and we watch ammonia and clouding in response. Let's slowly add over a week perhaps, monitoring carefully ammonia and clouding for sure. This thread is very interesting to me thanks for posting good details

 

[JasonK84]

No live rock but I did have the 4 liters of pond matrix in the sump of my 30 gallon for a week letting it seed a little from the established system which does have some live rock in it. I also plan to move everything from the 30 gallon to the 120 once the fish are out. Not a completely dry start as you are looking for.

 

[NY_Caveman]

Found this picture in my deleted folder on my phone from October 21. Shows nitrates higher there than they are now.

According to Randy Holmes-Farley, measurable Nitrite can lead to a false Nitrate reading.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/no3-on-a-brand-new-tank.444602/#post-5059278

I would not even test Nitrate until you have zero Ammonia and Nitrite. Just my opinion.

 

[JasonK84]

Today's test:
PH-8
Ammonia-0
Nitrite-0
Nitrate-undetectable with test

Since the start I would guess I've added close to 2 ounces of the 4 ounce bottle of dr tims ammonia and nitrates are undetectable with no water changes being done.

I'm redosing and going to wait for the 2ppm in 24 hours so I can comfortably add all 6 fish that are ready at once.

Just so strange that nitrates are being consumed at this rate so early without any nutrient export other than a skimmer that isn't fully adjusted yet (haven't emptied the cup once since the start because I've been keeping it wide open to get the skimmer broke in).

 

[brandon429]

Jason

Do you have a 55 gallon drum of popcorn handy, here’s the top aquarists we have on cycling claiming your tank was cycled within one week

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/bacteria-in-a-bottle-myth-or-fact.403226/page-64


Do watch

Based on us pushing your 35 day timing, nitrite not complying, and ammonia complying as predicted but at a turtles pace, what results do you expect from their upcoming test after 7 days of hydration only and then a full water change and new ammonia test

Would you have cycled for one week, changed all the water, added no new bac, then put in all your fish? the notion that you needed more than seven days for bacteria to adhere and populate is laughable to them, disregarded fully in fact.

 

[brandon429]

What they do not recognize, nor care to validate when a friend is helping to speak up in the thread, always the way of the masses, is that suspension cycling is independent of surface area in the tank and this is dangerous for cyclers who don’t want new additions to die.
suspension cycling is a false indicator of a true cycle but suspension cycling is very handy for emergency tanks, hospital tanks etc where quick starts are needed, you just have to keep dosing bac as life support.

I can’t wait to see how all three params perform when redosed back to 1 or 2 ppm after a wc

We arrived at thirty days because that’s what it takes to keep sixteen pages free of any losses given all the nuances people cycling at home impart to their tanks but usually don’t reveal in description posts. They’ve stated five days is the depositional mark, bac makers in the thread who are from retailers that sell the items. A full water change test at day six or seven is really a test of the vitality of the cells they sell.

 

[JasonK84]

What they do not recognize, nor care to validate when a friend is helping to speak up in the thread, always the way of the masses, is that suspension cycling is independent of surface area in the tank and this is dangerous for cyclers who don’t want new additions to die.
suspension cycling is a false indicator of a true cycle but suspension cycling is very handy for emergency tanks, hospital tanks etc where quick starts are needed, you just have to keep dosing bac as life support.

By basing their entire cycle notion on what test kits say, and what’s dosed into the water, independent of submersion times, disregarding the role of surface area, they could get an empty ten gallon tank or a standard cup of water to read zero ammonia, no nitrite and some nitrate by what’s dosed temporarily in suspension— a false connotation that surfaces are ready and -able- as no empty ten gallon tank nor empty cup could ever support fish nor endure the water changes and normal care procedure reef tanks use- we’d be locked into feeding it bottle bac forever to keep a test subject alive since suspension cycling vs substrate cycling matters, big time. It’s important to know the distinction so that we can be dynamic in cycling and deliberate, traits of successful reefers who command compliance from these investments and not just hope for it.

Soon we will see the outcome of their test, I want to see all three params charted on only seven days submersion testing. Let’s say they used the fritz bacteria which is shown to be the most virile, and they get a passed test for all three params— before this is taken as new gold we would need to run a cycling thread including all the variables people present at home to this 7 day challenge, and by page five we will have fish loss reported for sure.

We arrived at thirty days because that’s what it takes to keep sixteen pages free of any losses given all the nuances people cycling at home impart to their tanks but usually don’t reveal in description posts

My aim here is to put all 6 fish from my current DT into this tank and not have ammonia build up. My biggest question here is trying to understand the nitrate portion of my testing. Why are they staying so low. Every other tank I've cycled in the past has produced off the charts nitrates by the end of the cycle. I'm seeing nothing on mine now except when nitrites are present but that has been explained that nitrates will show elevated when nitrite is present.

 

[brandon429]

I have no guess there but we need confirming tests on it to know. We have that one thread linked where nitrate is 50 ppm different between api and Red Sea for example, though I’d not expect all similar comparisons to be as off. If the readings are tied to nitrite compliance that may explain it, truly it’s only a guess. Nitrate ranges so much in tanks that one guy can’t get it low enough even if he goes bare bottom and runs pellets, and another guy can’t get them high enough dosing stump remover. I find nitrate totally uncompliant across a set of reefs, and ammonia to be one million percent compliant across all reefs given source water control, accounting of all fish and motile organisms, and of sufficient submersion duration + surface area.

 

[JasonK84]

I have no guess there but we need confirming tests on it to know. We have that one thread linked where nitrate is 50 ppm different between api and Red Sea for example, though I’d not expect all similar comparisons to be as off. If the readings are tied to nitrite compliance that may explain it, truly it’s only a guess. Nitrate ranges so much in tanks that one guy can’t get it low enough even if he goes bare bottom and runs pellets, and another guy can’t get them high enough dosing stump remover. I find nitrate totally uncompliant across a set of reefs, and ammonia to be one million percent compliant across all reefs given source water control, accounting of all fish and motile organisms, and of sufficient submersion duration + surface area.

So, on the surface area aspect here. In reading what media I have do you feel I have sufficient surface area for a medium to heavy bioload? I do have plans of adding 4l more of pond matrix and thought about 2-4"x8"x8" marinepur blocks but if I have plenty now then it wouldn't be a necessary expense.

 

[brandon429]

I do, and this is to me a very risky thing to be hollering out across the web and a few counties frivolously as you have money on the line and quarantine time and obvious care for your animals.

To begin full on is not an arbitrary action, it’s all in. love it.

To me the science of cycling is nothing if it’s not predictable. Cycling is one of the few aspects of chemistry we encounter in reefing with a recurring terminal date across tanks, independent of what test kits show for the critical parameter. Your sand alone should be enough with the additional filtration, the live components and the time+boosters. Then you’d add in decor which is more curvy surface area and skimming, in my opinion it’s ready. With your test and their 7 day test, we will have a heckuva visual on depositional microbiology.


Clouding is the number one key to watch if you go full fish, which I think is ok-better to mete out in increments though, and am still shocked those guys are so sure about 7 days.


It feels weird to me at 37 ishdays but surface area and duration rules the day, not feelings. Any untoward clouding is the harbinger. By all means on the day of setup only add two, then two the next day I’m not trying to put your fish on the line for my daily thread hashings. We’re rushing plenty good for my speed :)

Have a full brute can of prep water made and ready, what harm is insurance when we’re breaking thirty year tradition.

Should you dose Prime, or ammonia offsetting items, all testing on that body of water becomes null as it throws everything off. Visual clouding of the water above norms is the absolute best and fastest and most reliable indicator in my opinion, clouding was what signaled the complete water change for me as I fish-in cycled a brand new 55 tank with twenty neons that did not die, and plastic decor. Very similar cycle to yours but I did rip changes and used zero testers of any kind. I don’t own reef test kits, my reef drawer is a thermometer and a swing arm and a padi diving book. Surface vs suspension cycling confers the ability to forego testing and that’s handy.

My clouding broke / surfaces active after three weeks...then it ran with normal feeding thereafter without help. It met the rules pretty close for google cycling charts but I was indeed still boosting. One dose of B.B. was def not enough, twenty neons day one would’ve wiped the tank and overcame the initial dose. cpr water changes and redosing of bacteria, due to suspension cycling rules, is the only reason the cycle worked without loss.




The fish loading you are introducing is correct for the surface area for a mature tank, and it’s also a lot for the first entry, if any bad calls have been made the exact manifestation will be minor clouding initially. then fish breathing increases, gill action, and top clinging behavior or hiding behavior. Water change time. Make sure sandbed clouding isn’t misinterpreted as ammonia clouding.


I don’t think I’d feed for the first two days... feed em well wherever they’re at now right before the move. We are usually dealing with live rock in my threads, which is a surface area cheat but you have some and you have hidden surface area boosts as well. Fire thrusters at fifty percent ramp up is my reco