Cycling an Aquarium

[Elise_]

Curious to what everyones thoughts are with my current testing on my first reef tank. I am starting a Fluval Evo 13.5.
This is 8 days into cycling the tank.
Started with cured live rock and live sand and have been dosing Microbacter7. I wasn't seeing any change in Ammonia so added a small piece of white meat fish 4 days ago which I have now removed.

Salinity is 1.023-1.024
pH: 8
I am reading these tests as:
Ammonia: 0.5
Nitrite: 0.5
Nitrate: 10-20

What do we think? I am thinking it looks like a good time for a water change. Should I be finding some ammonia to dose, is this proof that the live rock and sand are doing their thing to help cycle the tank?
I have only had freshwater tanks before and although the cycle is overall very similar I have had the benefit of being able to cycle using material from my other tanks, this is the first tank I have started from scratch in a very long time.

 

[Azedenkae]

Curious to what everyones thoughts are with my current testing on my first reef tank. I am starting a Fluval Evo 13.5.
This is 8 days into cycling the tank.
Started with cured live rock and live sand and have been dosing Microbacter7. I wasn't seeing any change in Ammonia so added a small piece of white meat fish 4 days ago which I have now removed.

Salinity is 1.023-1.024
pH: 8
I am reading these tests as:
Ammonia: 0.5
Nitrite: 0.5
Nitrate: 10-20

What do we think? I am thinking it looks like a good time for a water change. Should I be finding some ammonia to dose, is this proof that the live rock and sand are doing their thing to help cycle the tank?
I have only had freshwater tanks before and although the cycle is overall very similar I have had the benefit of being able to cycle using material from my other tanks, this is the first tank I have started from scratch in a very long time.

Without ammonia readings from when the fish was added and over the days it was in the tank, it is hard to comment what is going on. Could have been a lot of ammonia that was produced and this is on the tail end of it going down. Could just be the start of everything.

Surprised cured rock has not handled the ammonia yet, given the removal of the fish. Then again, 'cured rock' means different things to different people, so when you bought the cured rock, could have been essentially 'dead' rock for that matter.

Anyways, it looks like there is at least *some* ammonia oxidation going on, unclear how much nitrite oxidation is going on, but probably you have the nitrifiers you'd need already. A matter of increasing their numbers now.

Personally, I would stop playing around with white meat and stuff and actually rely on ammonium chloride dosing to better trace the cycle. What I'd do now is wait until ammonia and nitrite drops to zero, then dose 2ppm ammonia and 1. wait until both ammonia and nitrite gets to 0, then dose 2ppm ammonia again, but at any time 2. you measure 0 ammonia and nitrite within 24 hours of dosing 2ppm ammonia, your tank is fully cycled.

Nitrite actually needs to reach super high levels to be harmful for marine fish (long term), but I just like to be cautious.

 

[Elise_]

Without ammonia readings from when the fish was added and over the days it was in the tank, it is hard to comment what is going on. Could have been a lot of ammonia that was produced and this is on the tail end of it going down. Could just be the start of everything.

Surprised cured rock has not handled the ammonia yet, given the removal of the fish. Then again, 'cured rock' means different things to different people, so when you bought the cured rock, could have been essentially 'dead' rock for that matter.

Anyways, it looks like there is at least *some* ammonia oxidation going on, unclear how much nitrite oxidation is going on, but probably you have the nitrifiers you'd need already. A matter of increasing their numbers now.

Personally, I would stop playing around with white meat and stuff and actually rely on ammonium chloride dosing to better trace the cycle. What I'd do now is wait until ammonia and nitrite drops to zero, then dose 2ppm ammonia and 1. wait until both ammonia and nitrite gets to 0, then dose 2ppm ammonia again, but at any time 2. you measure 0 ammonia and nitrite within 24 hours of dosing 2ppm ammonia, your tank is fully cycled.

Nitrite actually needs to reach super high levels to be harmful for marine fish (long term), but I just like to be cautious.

Ammonia, Nitrite and Nitrate were all at 0 when I added the fish. Could not find any ammonia to dose at my lfs so thought I would give it a try. Sadly today was the first day I tested since adding the fish and removed it immediately after getting these readings.
I can test tomorrow after 24 hours with the fish meat removed and see where I am at? I will order some ammonia, probably what I should have just done in the first place.

Lesson learnt not to set up the tank in the middle of a run of night shifts!

Thanks for your help.

 

[Azedenkae]

Ammonia, Nitrite and Nitrate were all at 0 when I added the fish. Could not find any ammonia to dose at my lfs so thought I would give it a try. Sadly today was the first day I tested since adding the fish and removed it immediately after getting these readings.
I can test tomorrow after 24 hours with the fish meat removed and see where I am at? I will order some ammonia, probably what I should have just done in the first place.

Lesson learnt not to set up the tank in the middle of a run of night shifts!

Thanks for your help.

XD It's okay, I mean it's not like it is anything significantly deleterious, and heaps of people have cycled with fish food or some sort of seafood, myself included in the past, until I realized it is just way too hard to track things. I am sure there are plenty who still cycle their aquariums this way and props to them, just it's not for me.

 

[Brew12]

Ammonia, Nitrite and Nitrate were all at 0 when I added the fish. Could not find any ammonia to dose at my lfs so thought I would give it a try. Sadly today was the first day I tested since adding the fish and removed it immediately after getting these readings.
I can test tomorrow after 24 hours with the fish meat removed and see where I am at? I will order some ammonia, probably what I should have just done in the first place.

Lesson learnt not to set up the tank in the middle of a run of night shifts!

Thanks for your help.

I think your cycle is looking pretty good. I wouldn't bother with the ammonia. I'd let it sit another day or two and see if ammonia and nitrite finish dropping. API tests, especially ammonia, are inaccurate on the low end. It isn't common for tanks with effectively 0ppm ammonia to read 0.25 to 0.5ppm.

 

[Requin]

I have a 90g tank, 18 days ago rock/sand/water was added. I used the shrimp method because I could not find ammonia to start the cycle. My ammonia spiked after 5-7 days and has not come down very much. Nitrites spiked about 5 days ago and are still very high. I saw very little nitrates a few days ago and now it's 0. Clearly not ready for fish, but wondering if I should do a water change to manually lower ammonia and nitrites or just let it run?

 

[Azedenkae]

I have a 90g tank, 18 days ago rock/sand/water was added. I used the shrimp method because I could not find ammonia to start the cycle. My ammonia spiked after 5-7 days and has not come down very much. Nitrites spiked about 5 days ago and are still very high. I saw very little nitrates a few days ago and now it's 0. Clearly not ready for fish, but wondering if I should do a water change to manually lower ammonia and nitrites or just let it run?

So generally the answer to that question is, so long as ammonia and nitrite are both at 5ppm or less, it's cool and you can let it run.

Question though, what test kits are you using, and are you measuring >0 nitrite and 0 nitrate at the same time?

 

[Requin]

So generally the answer to that question is, so long as ammonia and nitrite are both at 5ppm or less, it's cool and you can let it run.

Question though, what test kits are you using, and are you measuring >0 nitrite and 0 nitrate at the same time?

Seachem Free & Total ammonia test kit. The color slide only goes to 6.0 and it at least that dark on total ammonia but the free ammonia as always read 0. I just bought the stick on Seachem monitor and it reads 0 ammonia.
Hanna for Nitrite and Nitrate. Tested last night and it was over 200ppb on a 25% sample but 0 Nitrate. I ran out of nitrite reagent so I have not been able to test every day but Nitrite was 58 on 4/18; 195 on 4/25. Nitrate on those same days was 0.9 then 0.

pH has been 8.1-8.4 except on 4/14-18 when it tested at 8.6. I did not do anything to bring it back to 8.1 now.

 

[Azedenkae]

Seachem Free & Total ammonia test kit. The color slide only goes to 6.0 and it at least that dark on total ammonia but the free ammonia as always read 0. I just bought the stick on Seachem monitor and it reads 0 ammonia.
Hanna for Nitrite and Nitrate. Tested last night and it was over 200ppb on a 25% sample but 0 Nitrate. I ran out of nitrite reagent so I have not been able to test every day but Nitrite was 58 on 4/18; 195 on 4/25. Nitrate on those same days was 0.9 then 0.

pH has been 8.1-8.4 except on 4/14-18 when it tested at 8.6. I did not do anything to bring it back to 8.1 now.

Ah okay, gotcha! A lot of people seem to only care about free ammonia, and Randy Holmes-Farley - the guy our chemistry forum is named with, would recommend to err on the side of caution and focus on total ammonia though: http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2007-02/rhf/index.php

With that said, free ammonia and ammonium interconverts, and apparently you should only see low free ammonia versus ammonium at lower pHs, so measuring 0 free ammonia while measuring at least 6ppm total ammonia would seem to be a bit strange. @Randy Holmes-Farley, any comments here? Did I misinterpret something?

Otherwise yeah, see if you can do a dilution test (similar to what you did with the nitrite Hanna test) and if ammonia is too high, might need to do a water change to lower it down to 5ppm or lower.

Interesting movements for nitrite and nitrate. Seems like regardless, some ammonia is being consumed. And nitrite too. Is there anything in your tank taking up nitrate?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

With that said, free ammonia and ammonium interconverts, and apparently you should only see low free ammonia versus ammonium at lower pHs, so measuring 0 free ammonia while measuring at least 6ppm total ammonia would seem to be a bit strange. @Randy Holmes-Farley, any comments here? Did I misinterpret something?

That's correct, the test is wrong somehow, or the pH is very low.. 6 ppm total ammonia will give about 1.2 ppm free ammonia at pH 8.2.

There's no reason to ever measure free ammonia, IMO, when total ammonia is expected to give better data.

 

[Requin]

That's correct, the test is wrong somehow, or the pH is very low.. 6 ppm total ammonia will give about 1.2 ppm free ammonia at pH 8.2.

There's no reason to ever measure free ammonia, IMO, when total ammonia is expected to give better data.

Do you have a preferred ammonia test? This is my third tank, but it has been a while since I set one up. the difference is the bottle bacteria. 20 years ago that stuff didn't exist but I went 3 months before adding fish.

 

[Requin]

Ah okay, gotcha! A lot of people seem to only care about free ammonia, and Randy Holmes-Farley - the guy our chemistry forum is named with, would recommend to err on the side of caution and focus on total ammonia though: http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2007-02/rhf/index.php

With that said, free ammonia and ammonium interconverts, and apparently you should only see low free ammonia versus ammonium at lower pHs, so measuring 0 free ammonia while measuring at least 6ppm total ammonia would seem to be a bit strange. @Randy Holmes-Farley, any comments here? Did I misinterpret something?

Otherwise yeah, see if you can do a dilution test (similar to what you did with the nitrite Hanna test) and if ammonia is too high, might need to do a water change to lower it down to 5ppm or lower.

Interesting movements for nitrite and nitrate. Seems like regardless, some ammonia is being consumed. And nitrite too. Is there anything in your tank taking up nitrate?

It's odd, I expected to see nitrate go up when I finally saw nitrite increase. But ammonia isn't decreasing and nitrite seems stalled. The lights have been off to avoid an algae bloom. No signs of algae and I have not started a refugium yet. It's just rock sand and water plus a bio block. I have not turned the skimmer on yet, do that?

 

[Requin]

That's correct, the test is wrong somehow, or the pH is very low.. 6 ppm total ammonia will give about 1.2 ppm free ammonia at pH 8.2.

There's no reason to ever measure free ammonia, IMO, when total ammonia is expected to give better data.

pH has never tested lower than 8.1 or higher than 8.4. Water is between 77.2 and 78.2 degrees, salinity between 34.8 and 35.9 over the testing period. If any of those give you a better picture.

Sounds like I should continue to wait it out and monitor the levels with what I have?

 

[taricha]

But ammonia isn't decreasing and nitrite seems stalled

actually, your measurements below say that ammonia is off-the-charts-high (so you don't know if it's decreasing or not), and Nitrite is increasing.

Seachem Free & Total ammonia test kit. The color slide only goes to 6.0 and it at least that dark on total ammonia

Hanna for Nitrite and Nitrate. Tested last night and it was over 200ppb on a 25% sample but 0 Nitrate. I ran out of nitrite reagent so I have not been able to test every day but Nitrite was 58 on 4/18; 195 on 4/25.

water change won't hurt - it might actually get you on the ammonia scale so you can see that it's going down, as your NO2 goes up.
I have no idea why you can't get a reading on NO3 test with off-the charts NO2. But regardless, if you have NO2 off-the charts, it's not informative to test for NO3.

 

[Azedenkae]

water change won't hurt - it might actually get you on the ammonia scale so you can see that it's going down, as your NO2 goes up.
I have no idea why you can't get a reading on NO3 test with off-the charts NO2. But regardless, if you have NO2 off-the charts, it's not informative to test for NO3.

I think it is because 1. @Requin is using the Hanna test rather than your average test, and if I am not wrong, that test is not affected by nitrite. But also 2. Requin is reporting ppb, not ppm.

 

[Azedenkae]

It's odd, I expected to see nitrate go up when I finally saw nitrite increase. But ammonia isn't decreasing and nitrite seems stalled. The lights have been off to avoid an algae bloom. No signs of algae and I have not started a refugium yet. It's just rock sand and water plus a bio block. I have not turned the skimmer on yet, do that?

Nah I don't think a skimmer would help here. I don't have an answer sorry, as to why you might be seeing a decrease in nitrate, sorry.

 

[taricha]

I think it is because 1. @Requin is using the Hanna test rather than your average test, and if I am not wrong, that test is not affected by nitrite.

Yeah, I assume we're talking about the ULR NO2 test hi764, and the marine NO3 hi781. I use both of those.
granted - off the charts on that NO2 test is 200ppb NO2-N, which may only show up as 1-2ppm on that hanna NO3 test, but it still ought to show up.
The NO2 test us super-easy, one pack of powder and slosh back and forth for 15 seconds.
The NO3 test is ... more involved.

 

[Azedenkae]

Yeah, I assume we're talking about the ULR NO2 test hi764, and the marine NO3 hi781. I use both of those.
granted - off the charts on that NO2 test is 200ppb NO2-N, which may only show up as 1-2ppm on that hanna NO3 test, but it still ought to show up.
The NO2 test us super-easy, one pack of powder and slosh back and forth for 15 seconds.
The NO3 test is ... more involved.

Okay, fair enough. XD I mean I am also curious about it to be honest, like above. Regardless, it is odd to read 0 nitrate in this case.

 

[Requin]

Okay, fair enough. XD I mean I am also curious about it to be honest, like above. Regardless, it is odd to read 0 nitrate in this case.

Plan of attack from all your excellent feedback:
-turn on skimmer
-test his morning for all parameters
-take sample to LFS for testing
-if LFS results are the same as mine - do water change
-if LFS is different then wait at least a week before introducing fish.

Does that plan miss anything?

 

[taricha]

-test his morning for all parameters
-take sample to LFS for testing
-if LFS results are the same as mine - do water change

pick up an API or red sea ammonia kit. Seachem disks are hard to quantify a decrease in ammonia from day to day to day, which is what you are looking for.