Cycling an Aquarium

[Azedenkae]

Thanks — very helpful! I did a baseline test a few days ago (for ammonia, should've done it for nitrites as well lol) with my pre-tank water and it seemed fine so I kept pushing along. Upon just doing it for nitrites, it barely registered a color so, like you said, at least now I can verify that the testing is working!

Given this, it seems my plan of action should be to stop dosing ammonia and wait for the nitrospira to develop more and observe lower levels of nitrites? I've been adding Microbacter7 the past few days so probably will continue.

Yeah, sounds like a plan. I should mention though that nitrite is non-lethal to marine fish unless it reaches super high levels, like 100+ ppm, and even for it to be toxic, still requires a high ppm too (a study recommended keeping nitrite below 25ppm).

So a lot of aquarists just straight up ignore nitrite when cycling their marine aquariums. I don't, just because really it should not take that much longer to ensure nitrite-oxidation is up to par, so why not a few more days for peace of mind.

 

[vetteguy53081]

My nitrite just doesn't want to get down, what can I do? Is it good to do a water change? 4 weeks with biological accelerator..

kEEP IT SIMPLE. Add a pouch of chemipure Blue or even Elite which will keep it check and keep your water polished.

 

[GuilhermeLba]

So this then depends on how well your aquarium is handling ammonia. That's kinda hard in some cases whereby your ammonia source is fish food as it may take a while to decompose and release ammonia, etc. etc., but in this case presuming you've been adding fish food daily for a while and ammonia is 0 (or 0.25ppm, with the API test kit), then it sounds like ammonia-oxidation capacity is up to par. So yes, you can probably add fish now.

Thanks for the help!!

 

[Brew12]

So a lot of aquarists just straight up ignore nitrite when cycling their marine aquariums. I don't, just because really it should not take that much longer to ensure nitrite-oxidation is up to par, so why not a few more days for peace of mind.

+1
I agree with this. It also has value, imo, because your nitrate value will not be accurate unless your nitrite is near 0. A few ppm nitrite will cause very high false nitrate readings.

 

[brandon429]

The hallmark impact of waiting for nitrite compliance means no projected start date. open-ended wait. it also implies that the only test kit we have for the param in the hobby, API, is automatically right this time

what impacts has anyone seen regarding selecting an exact start date, and not factoring nitrite? Can we see a linked thread for the bad outcome please. I always like to keep an even keel on the hints that nitrite matters in reefing, lets see times it mattered. regarding nitrite interference on nitrate testing...what difference would nitrate matter in a cycle assessment, its for long term tuning and as nitrite complies within 60 days or so then the endless testing can begin. It is certainly no harm to test for nitrite, but readers can also see there's zero consequence for not ever owning the kit

as I pull up nitrate test kit comparison threads, and the readings range 50 ppm difference per kit on water samples in some posts, it doesnt seem waiting for nitrite compliance gives any security for accuracy.

 

[vetteguy53081]

At about ten days into the cycle, the nitrifying bacteria that convert ammonia into nitrite Nitrosomonas, should begin to appear and build. Just like ammonia, nitrite can be toxic and harmful to marine animals even at lower levels, and without nitrite present the cycling process cannot complete itself. Once the nitrate-forming bacteria take hold, nitrite levels fall, nitrate levels rise, and the tank is fully cycled.

 

[brandon429]

That is patently not the case at all Vetteguy. There should be no hint that nitrite is toxic until we see a link, from a reef aquarium, for the event. I 100% bet right now nobody posts a single link, but I have a link for nitrite non toxicity that is out to 15 pages of proof now. the only reason I hadn't posted it is because anyone wanting to see it can search it out, here I'm looking for consequences links vs paragraphs.


Nitrate testing using api/ red sea doesn't become automatically correct even after we wait for nitrite compliance. It ranges wildly on many, many test kit comparison threads. they're searchable as links. in some threads its consistent, there's a mix of accuracy going on we need to factor. We are not being told here that nitrate testing can still be wrong even after gaining nitrite compliance, its misleading to leave that out for new readers.



Readers can attain timely cycle starts/ends by skipping nitrite factoring (moving homes, setting up new tank swaps and upgrade, handling emergency cracks and breakages, being invited to take your reef to a reefing convention and actually making the expected start date among hundreds of other non-stalls all are examples of needing timeliness vs open-ended waits)

new cyclers can save money on false stuck cycle repeat buys of bottle bac by never testing for nitrite.

they learn to trust the bacteria vs instantly doubt them by skipping nitrite compliance

Nitrate testing becomes a factor in long term tank tuning, it has literally nothing to do with cycle assessments whatsoever. Massive work threads are available for inspection if anyone wants to see them.



20 clowns in an empty tank designed to study nitrite toxicity at mega high levels has no bearing on our hobby whatsoever, its a relay designed to make you doubt, and buy a reinforcement.



**it is ok to still factor and await compliance/its a staple from our hobby for sure. I also feel its important for new cyclers to simply know that not owning the kit will save you tremendous headaches. We never hear this side of the claim...its an important detail we use to cycle hundreds and hundreds of reefs here each year, disfactoring nitrite testing...threads are avail for inspection.

 

[vetteguy53081]

That is patently false information Vetteguy. There should be no hint that nitrite is toxic until we see a link, from a reef aquarium, for the event. I 100% bet right now nobody posts a single link, but I have a link for nitrite non toxicity that is out to 15 pages of proof now. the only reason I hadn't posted it is because anyone wanting to see it can search it out, here I'm looking for consequences links vs paragraphs.


Nitrate testing using api, red sea doesn't become automatically correct even after we wait for nitrite compliance. It ranges wildly on many, many test kit comparison threads. they're searchable as links. in some threads its consistent, there's a mix of accuracy going on we need to factor. We are not being told here that nitrate testing can still be wrong even after gaining nitrite compliance, its misleading to leave that out for new readers.

Earlier above when mentioning the toxicity levels for nitrite that was never established in a reef tank, because its never happened in a reef tank it happens when we pack several clownfish for testing into a crowded glass tank with no surface area. No reef tank has ever, ever, ever reached nitrite toxicity and that's why there's not one link available for the claim, using a reef tank.

Readers can attain timely cycle starts/ends by skipping nitrite factoring

they can save money on false stuck cycle repeat buys of bottle bac

they learn to trust the bacteria vs instantly doubt them by skipping nitrite compliance

Nitrate testing becomes a factor in long term tank tuning, it has literally nothing to do with cycle assessments whatsoever. Massive work threads are available for inspection if anyone wants to see them.

Let the record reflect for the next 100 pages that not one person is going to ever post a single link from a reef tank during or after cycle that attained nitrite toxicity or a stalled cycle, not a single time. Its all huff recirculated among peers w no work threads for the claims. In the end you click and buy more, out of doubt, that's the endpoint affect.

It is my personal belief that nitrite has very little impact in saltwater vs freshwater but in the beginning it does but very short term. After the many years I’ve spent in this hobby, I have not seen nitrite cause the concern/issue generated by nitrate which even that is low compared to ammonia and even salinity issues (high or low)

 

[brandon429]

You know what I think makes an important proof for claims: take any tuned seneye post that tracks out a brand new tank cycling with fish and bottle bac, zero wait. They all go in at once.

that seneye shows total control day 1 to day 200 for ammonia, nitrite was never factored. search 'em lemme know if we see different results. In other words a zero wait time is optional, and ethical, so why wait a month or two / we paid for the quick start? by waiting out two months, we didnt even need any bottle bac or feed the systems will self-cycle free of charge.


dont get skunked by paying for bottle bac, then waiting out the timeframe for an unassisted cycle. its completely counterproductive.

 

[Susan Edwards]

Good info! I have a question. I am setting up a 240 gal end of September. New sand and new rock (Real Reef and Caribsea) except I'll be transferring 3-4 rocks with corals growing on them from my current tank. I'll add some rock to the sump, as well as moving over at least some of the marine cubes in my sump and the bags of ceramic/media to help seed the new tank. I also plan to use at 2 different types of bottle bacteria. the new rocks I think have some bacteria on them--the caribsea is supposed to be sprayed with it, and Real Reef is supposed to have been cycled, but it arrived dry.

Can I move the coral rocks into the new tank immediately upon set up as I need to add them to the new rockscape? Do I need to dose with the ammonia stuff? Can I do that with corals in the tank? (all softies: zoas, palys, rhodactis, gsp, hairy mushrooms) How long before I can move the fish over, or some of the fish. I want to be able to take that tank down reasonably fast.

 

[brandon429]

that is a skip cycle setup, dont add ammonia dont add bottled bac.

the active surfaces the corals are attached to will run your setup, the dry/inert surfaces will be fully self cycled in two weeks by mere contact.


since 100% of readers distrust bacteria, via our peer training lol, then its ok to add the bottle bac if you want or if the degree of new rocks used is equivalent to only a quarter pound in the whole tank (very low active surfaces transferred might call for it)

but if you are moving over any practical degree of live rock, say 5-10 pounds, that w carry all known starting common bioloads and effect a skip cycle even if another eighty pounds of dry rock in the loops isn't ready. The cured live rock is this powerful...

what % of your total rock area will be inert vs already cured and active? if you had to estimate, how many total pounds of cured rock are you bringing over>

this approach is a prime example of when to disfactor nitrite, it wouldnt be used in any degree of your move/upgrade planning. only ammonia control matters, nitrate can be tested for later on.

 

[Azedenkae]

Good info! I have a question. I am setting up a 240 gal end of September. New sand and new rock (Real Reef and Caribsea) except I'll be transferring 3-4 rocks with corals growing on them from my current tank. I'll add some rock to the sump, as well as moving over at least some of the marine cubes in my sump and the bags of ceramic/media to help seed the new tank. I also plan to use at 2 different types of bottle bacteria. the new rocks I think have some bacteria on them--the caribsea is supposed to be sprayed with it, and Real Reef is supposed to have been cycled, but it arrived dry.

Can I move the coral rocks into the new tank immediately upon set up as I need to add them to the new rockscape? Do I need to dose with the ammonia stuff? Can I do that with corals in the tank? (all softies: zoas, palys, rhodactis, gsp, hairy mushrooms) How long before I can move the fish over, or some of the fish. I want to be able to take that tank down reasonably fast.

To clarify, based on your last sentence - are you basically just wanting to do a tank transfer?

 

[Susan Edwards]

what % of your total rock area will be inert vs already cured and active? if you had to estimate, how many total pounds of cured rock are you bringing over>

I'd say I'm putting in a good 150-160 lbs of new rock and moving over maybe 20 lbs plus whatever I put in the sump of other material. I can also move whatever live rock to the sump with the new rock I might add in there to begin with as I can always remove the old live rock later but I'll have a pretty good size fuge down there (split sump). Essentially I can fill it with rock until I decide what to do with it.

 

[Susan Edwards]

To clarify, based on your last sentence - are you basically just wanting to do a tank transfer?

Yes. I'd love to be able to move over the fish as soon as it is safe. I've always used bottle bacteria so no objections there if it helps. If I can do it all right away, that'd be cool

 

[brandon429]

20 pounds will completely skip cycle your entire system as we’ve done for pages in the no bottle bac allowed skip cycle thread


it’s ok to spend money still and add the bac anyway if you want. We exchange bacteria with the reef anytime we get our hands wet from the tank, paying someone nine bucks for more bac is no harm.

I want to show you how much money we save, and the tanks we cycle, by not teaching doubt in every setup though, it’s a fair counterbalance to consider that you can just skip cycle here with no bottle bac at all

A thread tracking pure skip cycle instant reefs, no bottle bac

THE GOLDEN EXAMPLE OF A SKIP CYCLE DAY 1 REEF https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/octo-high-end-sps-skip-cycle-build.713256/ read that entire thread before you read ours. that's the heart of skip cycling. Everything we do going forward in this thread reflects on that ability above, in the #1...

www.reef2reef.com

how much nitrite and nitrate did we track there

we have hundreds and hundreds of cycle examples that simply never test for nitrite, readers should clearly see this option vs the training that it can stall a cycle or harm fish. it can't, in a reef tank cycle.

 

[Azedenkae]

Yes. I'd love to be able to move over the fish as soon as it is safe. I've always used bottle bacteria so no objections there if it helps. If I can do it all right away, that'd be cool

Ah. If you want to do a move, what can be done is to just straight up move everything over within the day. Move whatever live stock you can into a container, move rocks and stuff to a container too - can be the same or different. Tear down old tank, set up new tank, put everything back together including the new rock and sand, and tada!

Although the tank is larger, and the new rock may yet to be 'cycled', all the old stuff would be able to support the current bioload, so there is no reason or need to have to 'cycle' the new tank completely before transferring things over.

Generally I don't find it an issue to add stuff like Real Reef rock or the CaribSea sand to an established tank, though if you want to be careful, you can soak them in a separate bucket with saltwater to see if anything may leach out. If not, then they'd be fine to add into the new tank as you are setting up, along with everything else. And even if some parameters are slightly elevated, like ammonia, etc., then the current nitrifiers should also be able to take care of it. Nitrifiers don't necessarily stop reproducing once the cycle is done. They may continue, resulting in increasing nitrification capacities.

My tank for example, was cycled properly and while recently I suffered a crash and all my corals and anemone died, but all parameters still read zero anyways - testament to how well an established tank breaks down nutrients.

So yeah, tldr; you should be safe to transfer tanks in one go.

 

[Susan Edwards]

@brandon429 sounds like I can just do a tank transfer with what I have? Should I plan to add more of my old rock to sump at least for a time? I plan to heat all the water so I don't have to wait for tank to get to temp.

 

[brandon429]

if you move ten to twenty pounds of cured live rock into the new tank its simply ready.

dry rocks curing out phosphate might make for fun uglies for the next year, but that has no bearing on your cycle. it will skip, even if you move over fish into your new tank.

**even if you had a hundred pounds of cured rock prior and move only 20 lbs, that still carries every known bioload in reefing to the degree we cannot locate a single example link of a reef tank with too many fish and not enough live rock...it true ammonia noncontrol.

no examples exist for that arrangement, its why I wasnt worried about you using only 20 lbs. I bet thirty fish can be carried by twenty pounds of rock, are you moving over thirty fish on the same day

 

[Susan Edwards]

@Azedenkae cool. I'm fortunate in that the new tank is going in my office and the old tank is in the living room. We never use that room, so I want the fish and coral to be where I spend the most time lol's. This means I can remove ALL the rock, then catch the fish lol's

 

[Azedenkae]

@Azedenkae cool. I'm fortunate in that the new tank is going in my office and the old tank is in the living room. We never use that room, so I want the fish and coral to be where I spend the most time lol's. This means I can remove ALL the rock, then catch the fish lol's

Ahhh okay gotcha. But yeah, sounds like a plan. Can be done in the same day then.