Susan Edwards
5000 Club Member
@Brandon4 @Azedenkae Thank you
Cycling an Aquarium
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Connecting Established Reef To New Tank
EDIT: In conclusion, if using the method I did - connecting an established reef to a new system with dry rock (clean), I recommend the following: 1. Dose your new tank prior to connecting to your old tank with NO3 and PO4 enough to raise to your established tank levels. 2. Take your skimmer...
www.reef2reef.com
check that example out of going from cured rocks to dry. we use that post to show how we can cycle tanks free by merely running reef water from another tank over dry rocks...no nitrite considered. ammonia control proven
but in your case it shows the expected uglies that comes with highly reflective new curing rock. a real test, them uglies
right now on youtube there are claims made from MACNA speakers that reef water does not contain cycling bacteria
so what do folks do with that info? Assume they must buy it from a bottle.
doubts lead to reinforcement buys.
Right there above we show reef water has tons of cycling bacteria in it. millions of transferable colonies, free. that second reef above was cycled in 20 days by only having reef water from another tank in it, no feed and no bottle bac. one of the most important microbiology threads avail, along with the one that proves reefs self cycle fully in 60 days or less by giving only water and time, no bottle bac NO feed.
we now have proof threads to undo most all previous claims about cycling, and we make new ones every day. fun rules shaping-- big $$ on the line. if any of these reefs ever crash the hobby will never trust new cycling science. so far, no crashes not a single one.
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Just curious - Are you saying nitrITE IS toxic in saltwater or IS NOT toxic in saltwater? Top quote makes me think your saying it is but then bottom kind of says it isnt.
I think it was an article by Randy Holmes-Farley that explained about NitrITE not being toxic in the saltwater environment unless recorded at extrmeely high values.
Just curious, whilst reading the thread.
Susan Edwards
5000 Club Member
I will check it out. So if I do a big water change, 25-30 gal, before the new tank arrives, and save that water by using a powerhead and heater if needed (my house keeps brutes at 80 degrees in the summer), then I can use this water to help fill the new tank as well as all the new I'll have to make upConnecting Established Reef To New Tank
EDIT: In conclusion, if using the method I did - connecting an established reef to a new system with dry rock (clean), I recommend the following: 1. Dose your new tank prior to connecting to your old tank with NO3 and PO4 enough to raise to your established tank levels. 2. Take your skimmer...
check that example out of going from cured rocks to dry. we use that post to show how we can cycle tanks free by merely running reef water from another tank over dry rocks...no nitrite used notice. ammonia control proven
thats an option but moving the 20 pounds or more of rocks replaces that need by providing a skip cycle, it wouldnt matter what kind of water you used. on that example above we used zero live rock in the new setup, and were testing if we could get cycling bac in ways that were free vs buying it from bottle
I agree though that any old tank water used carries in nice insulation bacteria for the job 
am used to trying to start with the leanest amount of starting bac to test cycling proofs and to show they're trustworthy lol
there's no need to go so thin of bac on your job considering that easy source of boost water, plus its preventing waste anyway as I assume there's nothing wrong with your current water.
moving over several gallons of that old water plus the live rocks is darn prudent, heck I would. and not because I doubt the rocks
in the very least we've uncovered another plan that can avoid having to pay for extra bac from a bottle
am used to trying to start with the leanest amount of starting bac to test cycling proofs and to show they're trustworthy lol
there's no need to go so thin of bac on your job considering that easy source of boost water, plus its preventing waste anyway as I assume there's nothing wrong with your current water.
moving over several gallons of that old water plus the live rocks is darn prudent, heck I would. and not because I doubt the rocks
in the very least we've uncovered another plan that can avoid having to pay for extra bac from a bottle
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Susan Edwards
5000 Club Member
Sounds like I have a good plan in place! Will I add bottle bac? Probably lol's. But at least now I have confidence that this will go smoothly. At least until tank uglies... Hoping I can skip that part lol's
OMG this is so true. I've been setting up a new RSR 350 and placing all the fish in QT. Waiting for nitrite to be 0 has been killing me. Ammonia drops rapidly but nitrites LINGER for weeks it seems. I've tried biospira/Dr. Tim/Fritz all do the same thing (had several Duds from Dr. tim BTW, that was fun)
I've chronicled my QT efforts here...suffice to say, instant cycling with bottled bacteria takes about 3 weeks if you want 0 nitrites. I've been through this 3 times now.
Also I use Salifert Test kit for nitrite.
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Waiting out is the biggest misconception, and thinking of those who have waited 6 or more weeks to add anything
Risk thanks for posting
quarantines can be interesting skews since they're low surface area by design, but if you're using the typical arrangement anyone would be using in a qt then we know by pattern that setup is destined to carry fish we can see as well... its all very linked and predictable. controlling ammonia will be the same there as a full blown rocks and sand reef, same timing, just fewer attachment points and by that extension finite fish carry.
if you dump in a bottle of bac from any common cycling source, two pinches of feed for initial setup, bac will adhere to the surfaces in about three days or less (Dr Reefs bottle bac thread) immune to full water changes, which is a very quick cycle. you can then change out the cycling water for fresh new, and the biolayer filter will be adhere into place for water ready for dosing meds.
***if someone enjoys the chemistry of full measure, or likes altering params for their unique plan, test for nitrite as that's not a big deal. enjoy your chemistry if you like it< I can understand the appeal. merely relaying nitrite rules for anyone interested in start dates vs chemistry, that's a nice way to regard the different approaches in my opinion.
I'm aware folks have tested out dead bottle bac before, bad shipping etc. Its just never happened in a single cycle Ive ever ran so we don't consider that possibility much. I think anyone selling water bac in water would have an equal chance of successfully selling me a puppy dog while we're breathing air and standing on the ground. those are some mighty likely transfers that will happen.
quarantines can be interesting skews since they're low surface area by design, but if you're using the typical arrangement anyone would be using in a qt then we know by pattern that setup is destined to carry fish we can see as well... its all very linked and predictable. controlling ammonia will be the same there as a full blown rocks and sand reef, same timing, just fewer attachment points and by that extension finite fish carry.
if you dump in a bottle of bac from any common cycling source, two pinches of feed for initial setup, bac will adhere to the surfaces in about three days or less (Dr Reefs bottle bac thread) immune to full water changes, which is a very quick cycle. you can then change out the cycling water for fresh new, and the biolayer filter will be adhere into place for water ready for dosing meds.
***if someone enjoys the chemistry of full measure, or likes altering params for their unique plan, test for nitrite as that's not a big deal. enjoy your chemistry if you like it< I can understand the appeal. merely relaying nitrite rules for anyone interested in start dates vs chemistry, that's a nice way to regard the different approaches in my opinion.
I'm aware folks have tested out dead bottle bac before, bad shipping etc. Its just never happened in a single cycle Ive ever ran so we don't consider that possibility much. I think anyone selling water bac in water would have an equal chance of successfully selling me a puppy dog while we're breathing air and standing on the ground. those are some mighty likely transfers that will happen.
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Pertinent case study from our friends at reefcentral
look how long he was held up on nitrite, two months past his allotted start date. he mentions the key terms of able to reduce ammonia, he gets doubt and re verification offers in response. this isn't to highlight anything other than absolutely common patterns we get in using forum cycles as the rule vs seller's rules which knew his tank was ready when the label on the bottle of his bac said it'd be ready, ten days or less. he was like 70 days into running during that thread...and still was unsure of an allowed/ethical start date.
the one thing missing is resolute umpiring of a start date, nobody is sure if his new 2 clowns will live or die
see how far we still have to go in the hobby? only macna entrants get the consistent start dates, forum cyclers get the wait longer. every. single. time.
watch for that pattern in all cycle stuck threads, they aren't really stuck. knowing nitrate could not have helped them there, it would have added to wait if it came up zero for any reason on the test. he'd been able to start reef weeks and weeks before posting. The hobby is unaware that patterns link our tanks, timing patterns, and his cycle didnt take any longer than anyone else's Dr Tims bottle bac cycle.
those guys won't let me post there, guess why: cycle heresy lol. I told them in 2014 that nobody's ammonia was stuck at .25/last straw
Stuck Cycle, not sure where to go - Reef Central Online Community
Stuck Cycle, not sure where to go New to the Hobby
reefcentral.com
look how long he was held up on nitrite, two months past his allotted start date. he mentions the key terms of able to reduce ammonia, he gets doubt and re verification offers in response. this isn't to highlight anything other than absolutely common patterns we get in using forum cycles as the rule vs seller's rules which knew his tank was ready when the label on the bottle of his bac said it'd be ready, ten days or less. he was like 70 days into running during that thread...and still was unsure of an allowed/ethical start date.
the one thing missing is resolute umpiring of a start date, nobody is sure if his new 2 clowns will live or die
see how far we still have to go in the hobby? only macna entrants get the consistent start dates, forum cyclers get the wait longer. every. single. time.
watch for that pattern in all cycle stuck threads, they aren't really stuck. knowing nitrate could not have helped them there, it would have added to wait if it came up zero for any reason on the test. he'd been able to start reef weeks and weeks before posting. The hobby is unaware that patterns link our tanks, timing patterns, and his cycle didnt take any longer than anyone else's Dr Tims bottle bac cycle.
those guys won't let me post there, guess why: cycle heresy lol. I told them in 2014 that nobody's ammonia was stuck at .25/last straw
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OP
OP
Brew12
Electrical Gru
From a fish perspective, unless you have a very large number of fish, what you are planning should be fine. For coral, this move may not go so well.
There are many other factors that come into play for the stability of a reef tank. Doing a true tank transfer with all of your old rock would probably go very well. The large amount of new rock is what can cause issues. There is no way of knowing in advance just how that rock will impact stability of your system. This is why many people recommend not putting coral in a new tank for the first 4 months. Your softies may do just fine and have a better chance at success than SPS would, but it isn't guaranteed. And adding more rock from your old system won't change this, it is all about the instability from the new rock.
OP
OP
Brew12
Electrical Gru
Nitrite IS toxic to all fish. The chlorides in salt water provide protection for the fish and keep the fish from absorbing it. For nitrite in water to harm fish the nitrite has to be high enough, or chlorides low enough, to allow a harmful level to be taken up by the fish.
I’ve come to the certainty after watching cycling threads across forums that non prep for fish disease is the real killer, and sole issue to worry over during a cycle. Once we add water, the cycle is going to complete on a known timeframe relative to the boosters chosen (where fish can be ethically carried by the tank, not partially burned etc)
before a reef is built, we already know and can plan for the close date for the cycle, it’s timely not varied. Macna events comprise both dry start and wet rock transfer setups who always meet the start date. For any shipped ocean rock reverse cycles, plan to begin ten days after receiving the rock/curing time.
tank cycles are timely, not varying that’s key to show why we don’t have losses in our rulebreakers cycling threads. It’s why seneye doesn’t debate our findings (Yet, )
Ive seen zero instances where a cycle didn’t complete by its predetermined timeframe. We asked for link examples from anyone from any board regarding failed cycles and none are actually fails, they’re non digital test panics, and every time the tank carries the starting bioload. Here’s the thread asking for inputs
www.reef2reef.com
still looking for one single outlier. There’s one out there, but in the hunt we see a lightning strike as about as likely.
see how by omitting titration kit info and requiring dead fish as proof, all the stalled cycle claims cease?
Ive never seen the concept of dead bottle bac shown on seneye, its always api data for the claim/patterns
I’ve seen daily examples where after completing the cycle, the mixed fish added are lost to disease. We tracked out some trending in the fish disease forum and on any given day, the posts for help are by and large/ majority from tanks younger than eight months. this is the inescapable pattern noted. Test it out over next few day’s new help posts.
so we can’t find any examples of a failed cycle but we can find a thousand recent examples of fish kills by ignoring disease preps
its missing the mark to train a fear over cycle incompletion with no examples, and then omit the information that comprises nearly all fish loss examples
The forums could be outpacing the sellers for new info if they’d mind the patterns we can all see, test them out for strength vs weakness.
Fish disease preps are now the first links readers get in my cycling threads, fish disease is the most pressing shrinkage issue the hobby currently faces. we have been distracted by non digital test readings/stuck cycle fears into directly killing fish by surprise means never linked to the original cycle (two clowns added day one for example, vectors)
before a reef is built, we already know and can plan for the close date for the cycle, it’s timely not varied. Macna events comprise both dry start and wet rock transfer setups who always meet the start date. For any shipped ocean rock reverse cycles, plan to begin ten days after receiving the rock/curing time.
tank cycles are timely, not varying that’s key to show why we don’t have losses in our rulebreakers cycling threads. It’s why seneye doesn’t debate our findings (Yet,
)Ive seen zero instances where a cycle didn’t complete by its predetermined timeframe. We asked for link examples from anyone from any board regarding failed cycles and none are actually fails, they’re non digital test panics, and every time the tank carries the starting bioload. Here’s the thread asking for inputs
Forum Challenge: link an example of a failed reef tank cycle from any post on the internet.
Team, doesnt even have to be your own tank can be google searches. A tank we've actually owned with pics though is better, some details we can identify in what constitutes a stalled cycle this is a continuing study in the ever-changing rules for cycling reef tanks and for this post, we want...
www.reef2reef.com
see how by omitting titration kit info and requiring dead fish as proof, all the stalled cycle claims cease?
Ive never seen the concept of dead bottle bac shown on seneye, its always api data for the claim/patterns
I’ve seen daily examples where after completing the cycle, the mixed fish added are lost to disease. We tracked out some trending in the fish disease forum and on any given day, the posts for help are by and large/ majority from tanks younger than eight months. this is the inescapable pattern noted. Test it out over next few day’s new help posts.
so we can’t find any examples of a failed cycle but we can find a thousand recent examples of fish kills by ignoring disease preps
its missing the mark to train a fear over cycle incompletion with no examples, and then omit the information that comprises nearly all fish loss examples
The forums could be outpacing the sellers for new info if they’d mind the patterns we can all see, test them out for strength vs weakness.
Fish disease preps are now the first links readers get in my cycling threads, fish disease is the most pressing shrinkage issue the hobby currently faces. we have been distracted by non digital test readings/stuck cycle fears into directly killing fish by surprise means never linked to the original cycle (two clowns added day one for example, vectors)
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I guess harmful would have been a better choice of word then i reckon - I get its toxic - But is it harmful to fish in the saltwater environment, ie the everyday expected environment we keep the fish in.
Ive always assumed it isnt myself and articles like Randy's also seem to suggest in normal, everyday circumstances that nitrITE is not really worth worrying about in our tanks.
I dont actually think ive ever owned a nitrITE test kit to be honest, right or wrong, in quite a long time in the hobby.
OP
OP
Brew12
Electrical Gru
I don't worry about nitrite from a fish health perspective but I do recommend using a test kit during cycling. A large number of people have done unnecessary (imo) water changes to lower nitrates when their nitrates were never high to begin with. A relatively small amount of nitrite will cause a false high nitrate reading.
I would only recommend not testing for nitrite if you were not going to take any actions early in a tanks life for nitrate.
Brew what's your take on the hobby accepting all api nitrite data as accurate, without challenge
try and find one reported nitrite reading where anyone simply asks for validation proof of the reading, 100% acceptance as fact rate even here from the start. stated api nitrite is accepted as fact, every page
is there any chance that kit, or its preps, or its reporting levels can be misconstrued by thousands? its fill levels are still 5 mls/folks misfill daily and still report postive readings
wait time before recording the outcome
contamination by Prime use/amquel
shaking reagents correctly
all these are known issues in the other api kits
until we get side by side sample comparison threads it seems we're making the ends fit the means we have with zero proofing required?
legit patterns to inspect. make a poll about any api kit, you already know how ammonia and nitrate will go down, about 70/30 divide is the prediction (30% like, feels accurate)
but for nitrite the level of trust goes to 100%? amazing
*in counterpoint api nitrite might be the most sensitive and accurate data in reefing, but without comparison threads how can we know?
try and find one reported nitrite reading where anyone simply asks for validation proof of the reading, 100% acceptance as fact rate even here from the start. stated api nitrite is accepted as fact, every page
is there any chance that kit, or its preps, or its reporting levels can be misconstrued by thousands? its fill levels are still 5 mls/folks misfill daily and still report postive readings
wait time before recording the outcome
contamination by Prime use/amquel
shaking reagents correctly
all these are known issues in the other api kits
until we get side by side sample comparison threads it seems we're making the ends fit the means we have with zero proofing required?
legit patterns to inspect. make a poll about any api kit, you already know how ammonia and nitrate will go down, about 70/30 divide is the prediction (30% like, feels accurate)
but for nitrite the level of trust goes to 100%? amazing
*in counterpoint api nitrite might be the most sensitive and accurate data in reefing, but without comparison threads how can we know?
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OP
OP
Brew12
Electrical Gru
I don't trust any test kit data without challenge. I consider alkalinity and calcium to be critical to know accurately. I use 3 separate test kits/systems and have a lab certified reference solution to verify them with. Since I consider nitrite to be non critical, I don't bother with or necessarily care about accuracy. I only use it as a data point if I question my nitrate reading. I do keep 2 nitrate kits. If I show low nitrates on both kits then I know a high nitrite reading is not possible and must be a testing error.
But then, I also don't accept "fish living" as a valid data point to adding tanks with ammonia either. I am firmly against adding fish with systems that could potentially have more than trace amounts of ammonia. We know that a massive amount of systems have been cycled with dry rock and fish and that the overwhelming majority of those fish will live. Studies have shown that these fish will have permanent gill damage from being exposed to that ammonia. This damage will make fish much more susceptible to succumbing to any parasites that impact gills such as Ich, Velvet, and flukes.
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