Cycling sump prior to display

[sesbalders]

Morning all.
Apologies if this has been covered before, I couldn’t find anything.

I find myself in an interesting position, in that due to financial constraints (new job) and a new big tank. Ie not got the money to set the display up for a month or so.

however I spent the money I had on getting the sump set up perfectly (I think) re baffled, media, uv unit, skimmer and pump.

is there any mileage/ point in getting a cycle going just in the sump? I can bypass the tank and have the return dump straight into the filter basket and just leave it running whilst I’m getting the money up together for the rest. Obviously I understand when the cash comes in for the rest, there will be additional cycling time with the tank connected.
Thoughts?

 

[Court_Appointed_Hypeman]

Sounds like a good move to me if you have something for bacteria to settle on in the sump. Any rock or media.

 

[sesbalders]

Sounds like a good move to me if you have something for bacteria to settle on in the sump. Any rock or media.

It’s got a load of bio media in there to support the bugs

 

[BaliReefBox]

it cant hurt...imo

 

[sesbalders]

it cant hurt...imo

My thoughts exactly

 

[carri10]

I would definitely do it. A lot is made of the importance of patience and the importance of allowing time for a new tank to get stable. The BRS work in microbiome gives an interesting viewpoint on why this is. Having looked through that information, I would definitely recommend getting a head start on cycling, I would even get any of your live/ dead rock in the sump and allow the microbiome to start to develop.

 

[gbroadbridge]

Morning all.
Apologies if this has been covered before, I couldn’t find anything.

I find myself in an interesting position, in that due to financial constraints (new job) and a new big tank. Ie not got the money to set the display up for a month or so.

however I spent the money I had on getting the sump set up perfectly (I think) re baffled, media, uv unit, skimmer and pump.

is there any mileage/ point in getting a cycle going just in the sump? I can bypass the tank and have the return dump straight into the filter basket and just leave it running whilst I’m getting the money up together for the rest. Obviously I understand when the cash comes in for the rest, there will be additional cycling time with the tank connected.
Thoughts?

If you have bio media in the sump it is definitely advantageous to let that cycle up in advance of the display.

Many folks cycle rock in big containers to get a head start, doing it in the sump will allow you to get other equipment run in as well.

 

[ryanjohn1]

New plastic usually causes a dyano outbreak

 

[brandon429]

@Cell


Any chance we are on the same wavelength about this thread

I wouldn’t think for one second there’s any harm to doing this

but what’s the benefit, how much do sumps help prevent crashes from lack of bacteria


how well is a sump positioned to receive wastewater compared to a display (it gets only the degree of wastewater flowed through the piping, which is highly restricted compared to surface area in a display)


for getting equipment tuned and going, seals and machinery and skimmers and heaters and baffles verified its a great plan. Is it really a boost for cycling though

 

[Cell]

The sump is just another tank. The benefit is starting getting the cycle done and starting the maturing process earlier. Then when you add the DT, it's basically just a tank upgrade.

 

[sesbalders]

Thanks for the advice folks

 

[Garf]

Morning all.
Apologies if this has been covered before, I couldn’t find anything.

I find myself in an interesting position, in that due to financial constraints (new job) and a new big tank. Ie not got the money to set the display up for a month or so.

however I spent the money I had on getting the sump set up perfectly (I think) re baffled, media, uv unit, skimmer and pump.

is there any mileage/ point in getting a cycle going just in the sump? I can bypass the tank and have the return dump straight into the filter basket and just leave it running whilst I’m getting the money up together for the rest. Obviously I understand when the cash comes in for the rest, there will be additional cycling time with the tank connected.
Thoughts?

Yes, I did this I my most recent tank while I was waiting for my cement to cure

 

[brandon429]

this was my thought process:

no reef display using rocks up top by measure using any ammonia test kit can discern whether or not a sump has extra surface area in it

you don't get more ammonia control by adding the extra surface area beyond the rocks, nor do you get weakened ammonia control by not having extra surface area beyond the display rocks and this includes removing extra surface area within the system, cycled in place leaving only display rocks

(this is where 99% of readers staunchly disagree but they don't own seneye to position that agreement)

it means in any reef display, you can remove someone's sandbed, all their sump media and all their bioballs and a seneye meter doesn't change pace even if you add in two more fish up top while removing all that extra surface area. (we do this routinely)

you can add fish because reef rocks are so far beyond what we need in active surface area. we aren't anywhere near the max carry ability of reef display rocks. we could remove half of those too (and we do this routinely in the sand rinse thread)

sump surface area is completely neutral impact in reefing. it's something we do to feel good, trained by peers, but a seneye can't tell if you have 30 bio bricks in a sump OR if you remove 30 seasoned biobricks from a sump and keep the same fish loading up top (or add a couple). that's because rock surface area in the display is what counts, and that's not being prepped here just yet.

ergo, cycling anything in a sump when rocks above are about to carry the actual load, due to proximity to ammonia production, is completely neutral. it's for sure going to cycle extra surface area in the sump to start early, but that can't help the tank in any demonstrable way and it can't make a test kit read differently that tracks ammonia control.

positioning of bioload: if we pack a bunch of queen angelfish in a reef tank that is free of rocks and sand in the display, but pack a sump in the best active surface area of the day, ammonia builds in the display because the active surface area is not in proximity to production. waste swirls around burning them, until small portions get down the delivery pipe and back. sump surface area is not positioned to help even if it was helpful.

water does not flow through biobricks, it flows around...

there was no need for this diatribe its just fun to do lol

 

[gbroadbridge]

positioning of bioload: if we pack a bunch of queen angelfish in a reef tank that is free of rocks and sand in the display, but pack a sump in the best active surface area of the day, ammonia builds in the display because the active surface area is not in proximity to production. waste swirls around burning them, until small portions get down the delivery pipe and back. sump surface area is not positioned to help even if it was helpful.

Interesting hypothesis. Have you proven it experimentally?

 

[brandon429]

I prove it with any seneye post you can find

changing the surface area around in a display reef does not cause a lack of biofilter, as people on API thought for thirty years.

we use other people's $$ on the line to manage surface area with our fifty page sand rinse thread doing those steps:

Official Sand Rinse and Tank Transfer thread

If you are reading this thread to cure a tank invasion from a link I sent you, we do not need to identify your type of invasion here we do not need you to test anything at anytime regarding nitrate, phosphate etc Above all, we do not need to see a microscope slide picture of your invasion at...

www.reef2reef.com

thats fifty pages absolutely stripping surrounding surface area the harshest possible way in any reef tank that wants to post. we solely wind up with live rocks in the display


we have cut display rocks by half in some cases, we always tap rinse the sand which I'd assume destroys its bacteria

we get spot checked on seneye owners who follow that procedure

we do removal of sumps and accessory surface area like these jobs:

Removing remote deep sand bed

I setup a removable deep sand bed in my sump 9 months ago but now I’d like to remove it to give me more room in the sump. What do you think the impact to tank chemistry might be and how to mitigate any negatives?

www.reef2reef.com

I honestly think we are past the theory stage, that's eight years running above. Yes agreed it was a little scary on page 2 that was the theory stage

 

[brandon429]

open call to any reef tank from any board: if you want to make your tank be display rocks only, all at once, we can. you have to take it apart in a certain order of ops to do so safely

if you upwell detritus waste, that's your risk.

we never do that

*BRS said removing whole sandbeds was dangerous, for them it may be. they were skipping the light ramping step where we start over from max PAR in the pre rip clean tank back down to acclimation level LED in the post rip clean tank, that will prevent coral bleaching.

surface area to the side of live rocks in the display is so expendable I can't give it any value points at all in reefing.

extra surface area helps in quarantine tanks, where rocks aren't used as the waste ammonia swirls. displays have it all under control.

 

[brandon429]

*there is a point at which too few live rocks in the display would be present and fish ammonia will crash the tank. I've never seen that happen in 20 years online collecting jobs. heck there was a study somewhere referenced in the chemistry forum of a completely barren glass tank prior cycled, having its rocks sand and all life removed for a test, still showing quite strong ammonia control off the bioslicks on the walls. I simply have never seen anyone remove so much live rock from a display that we thought it would crash the system.

we did all that control with no ammonia testing requested for the entrants by simply keeping cloudy waste apart from the sensitive animals. Lack of surface area does not occur in display tank reefing, I feel very certain now.

we will get to finalize that statement with more and more seneyes coming on board and keeping the logs as people do tank transfers, bed removals, sump removals etc.

as of now we judge success by their tank not crashing and by no loss of any animals such as lysmata shrimp, which would never tolerate an untoward parameter change. *we only get rare and occasional/ once a year seneye spot checks for the verification; not enough of them exist to get feedback from everyjob

we absolutely do not want non digital ammonia testing present above; it will state .2 or .25 like it does in most normal reefs and people will again assume they're lacking surface area and begin adding all kinds of soupy mixtures to the tank like Prime and bottle bac we dont need

no bottle bac was used in that whole thread...that really means something about residual live rock bacteria. that thread has clues to microbiology that aren't as apparent as the bulk pages of type. No testing and no bottle bac pinpoint what we're doing with bacteria, in my opinion.

failure to find a single seneye post in reefing indicating too little surface area in a reef display also factors.

completely great outcomes for eight years is a fine stand in, until everyone is on digital nh3 that's my honest assessment.

 

[edd59]

fill it with your rock and let it cycle with some live rock.

 

[gbroadbridge]

I prove it with any seneye post you can find

changing the surface area around in a display reef does not cause a lack of biofilter, as people on API thought for thirty years.

we use other people's $$ on the line to manage surface area with our fifty page sand rinse thread doing those steps:

Official Sand Rinse and Tank Transfer thread

If you are reading this thread to cure a tank invasion from a link I sent you, we do not need to identify your type of invasion here we do not need you to test anything at anytime regarding nitrate, phosphate etc Above all, we do not need to see a microscope slide picture of your invasion at...

www.reef2reef.com

thats fifty pages absolutely stripping surrounding surface area the harshest possible way in any reef tank that wants to post. we solely wind up with live rocks in the display

Okay, I use a seneye for my QT, which is fired up on demand using a disposable bio brick that I always keep in my display tank sump.

I have never tried setting up the QT, and then using it as a sump for another bare tank and monitoring Ammonia in that bare tank.

Next time I will and see if, as I expect, the Ammonia conversion will happen in the 'sump' tank leaving the 'QT' showing 0.001 on the Seneye.

 

[brandon429]

my caveats were for display tanks

that being said, if you'd use your calibrated seneye for cycling works you'll be perhaps the only one on the site doing so, Dr. Reef has phased out his work since all the bottle bac stuff is known.

we need this from you pls:

calibrate the seneye by showing what it runs on a fully normal display, should be .00x ppm nh3 not near the 9's probably .004 or less unless you have a truly massive fish load.

then transfer that known working seneye over to a bucket reef set up with 5 gallons of water, all dry rocks packed in, plus two clownfish and give them a tiny bit of food right off the bat.


we as a hobby need to know how fast an uncycled tank loses control. net them out if the nh3 gets to .05 please report that condition/its changes/we all need to know what an uncycled reef does and we need to know if it even began to crash at all. It's not mean: we need actual fish for the final steps. everyone guesses with liquid ammonia drops but we need the real comparison, with fish, to help save thousands of fish used by people with testing no where near that accurate.


then if you can, in a test aquarium it must not be a small test cube of half a gallon or anything, replicate the dilution we commonly see, start removing rocks from a display reef with some fish in it known running stable a few days and see how many rocks can be removed before it starts to obviously climb

nobody has done these tests in reefing, nobody.

none of the classic reef cycle authors we read about has done these tests or written about them.

you could then do tap water insult testing: what is the true impact to filter bacteria from contact with tap water


******you could do sandbed testing** to prove or disprove that sandbeds do not store up ammonia, only a seneye can reveal that. a cloudy sky makes API turn green, common adulterants like Prime mess with it, try the common things we do in a reef like kicking up sand or moving rocks on a seneye