Cycling to end with premium live rock, best method?

[brandon429]

the reason old cycling science vs new cycling science matters is due to the omission of fish disease preps by proponents of old cycling science. they spend so much time referring a fear they can't link that all mention of disease preps are excluded from the tank build and concept...we can see in the disease forum how that's impacting our hobby.

fish disease preps are what you need, ammonia and cycling are going to be just fine/they always are where display tanks are concerned.

 

[BubblesandSqueak]

The biggest part was when I saw sellers of live ocean rock recommending NOT to use Premium to cycle a new tank and use Base. Using live ocean rock seems to be promoted as a better method to hopefully avoid some of the tank ugly stages. A few mosts back a person said they battled with algae for 1.5 years from dry rock and switched to Premium and had great results. I think on average, the cost of live ocean rock is double dry rock then premium ends up like another 30%. So for cost vs effectiveness, is what I was looking for. You'd pay a lot more switching from base to premium then dry rock to premium. either way I figured just staying with Base rock is the way to go. I can always buy sea stars, urchins, worms, corals etc...that might have come in as a surprise.

 

[Midrats]

You will get stars, worms, urchins, and coral on the base rock. Good luck, and post pics!

 

[jda]

The premium that I have seen just has a few more corals, macro algae, some NPS and super developed sponge growth. The base has all of it too, just not as much. Unless you want to try and get a hard coral on some premium and keep it alive, I just don't know if I would spend the extra since most of it will die anyway or you won't want it - very few want Halimedia in their reef over time? This is the only way that you can get hard coral from Florida, but there is no guarantee and you probably need a super established tank for it to make it anyway.

 

[JoJosReef]

The premium that I have seen just has a few more corals, macro algae, some NPS and super developed sponge growth. The base has all of it too, just not as much. Unless you want to try and get a hard coral on some premium and keep it alive, I just don't know if I would spend the extra since most of it will die anyway or you won't want it - very few want Halimedia in their reef over time? This is the only way that you can get hard coral from Florida, but there is no guarantee and you probably need a super established tank for it to make it anyway.

+1 to this

The hard coral are very challenging to keep alive, except for the hidden cup corals. My star corals did well but were very susceptible to ulva and Valonia outbreaks. They would start to get covered on their edges, I'd try to manually remove but the edges never recovered, etc.

Black and red sponges, the kind that look like slime, just don't seem to persist. The white ball-type sponges do extremely well, though, in the undersides of the rocks!

Tunicates seem a mixed bag in terms of survivability.

Bivalves! Everyone said they can't make it. And a lot of mine didn't. But surprisingly 1.75 yr later I find some that are alive!

I will say, if you load up on the gulf rock and sand and pay close attention to everything, it's like having a super established tank right off the bat. $$$$$ though.

 

[BubblesandSqueak]

I'm hoping to do this as fast as possible and efficiently. thoughts to the best method? I only have 40 gallons of storage in containers. So....Should I mix and keep dumping into the tank then do another collection. This would take a few days. I could just fill it with clean RO then mix the salt in the tank a couple days before the rock comes? I'm thinking that adding the sand after I fill it with water (and it's salted). probably more cloudy than dropping salt water on it though. Fastest method of getting more RO is Whole Foods RO sourcing. How long could I potentially have Salt Water by itself sitting in the tank circulating before dropping in live rock? It's just A LOT of water to have quickly.

 

[jda]

You can mix the salt in the tank. Overnight is usually plenty of time and most are faster. I use tap water to start a tank - we have pretty good water. RO then after.

 

[BubblesandSqueak]

You can mix the salt in the tank. Overnight is usually plenty of time and most are faster. I use tap water to start a tank - we have pretty good water. RO then after.

I thought always RO? I have about 40 gallons in containers. Is it OK to just fill the whole tank with RO water then add salt a couple days before or can I add saltwater mixed a week in advance? I ask this because it is a LOT of water and a REALLY heavy tank which will be placed a week later the live rock arrives. It's my first bean tank. I'd like to run saltwater ahead of time so I can adjust the ATO too and not have to play with it after the rock goes in. Thinking to fill it then before the rock goes in, drain out about 40 gallons then add the rock and replace the water (for rock displacement)

 

[jda]

You can use RO, for sure. I just don't most of the time for the initial fill up.

Doing any of that ahead of time is totally fine.

 

[Midrats]

Just have the tank heated, salted, and ready to go, then order the rock and put it right in. It'll be less messy to add the sand first. Place a dinner plate on the sand and pour the water onto that when you fill the tank.

 

[JoJosReef]

I'm hoping to do this as fast as possible and efficiently. thoughts to the best method? I only have 40 gallons of storage in containers. So....Should I mix and keep dumping into the tank then do another collection. This would take a few days. I could just fill it with clean RO then mix the salt in the tank a couple days before the rock comes? I'm thinking that adding the sand after I fill it with water (and it's salted). probably more cloudy than dropping salt water on it though. Fastest method of getting more RO is Whole Foods RO sourcing. How long could I potentially have Salt Water by itself sitting in the tank circulating before dropping in live rock? It's just A LOT of water to have quickly.

You can mix the salt in the tank. There's nothing in there that would be affected by salinity swings. And added bonus is you can dial in the ATO and any other equipment ahead of time.

When the rock comes, you can remove the amount of water for displacement and add your rocks into the tank directly. Are you planning to aquascape in real time or dump the rocks and let them hang out for a bit, picking off unwanted critters? If aquascaping, I recommend having a second person handy to keep the rocks wet while out of the water by dripping tank water over them while you handle it and get reef cement in the right places. This will also help you minimize any die-off. Base rock might not have as much that is affected by the air as premium, which has tons of sponges (don't expose sponges to air if possible), but still might have life on it that would be happier staying wet.

Are you using TBS sand? If so, I recommend taking it slowly and sifting the sand. It's all good sand, but you can sometimes pick out a few hitchhikers you don't want by having a large pan with some tank water in it, dropping a scoop of sand in and spreading it thin to pull out anything bad. I would mostly be looking for isopods or undesirable worms--most worms aren't bad, just a few.

Salt Water can be sitting by itself forever if you want, as long as you're topping it off to keep the salinity stable. If not, it will evaporate and you'll be adding rocks to hypersaline water.

 

[BubblesandSqueak]

This is what I was interested in. I’m actually doing caribsea pink and adding the live rock afterwards. It’s OK to place the sand and fill with RO then mix in salt? (The 15% off was a good deal on rock). I’m thinking it would take me 2 days to fill with RO from the driving trips. Then once it fills, I can mix salt in. Just wasn’t sure if I’d be killing any bacteria in the caribsea sand by not adding salt for 2 days. I have an ATO and skimmer. I used the bag from the sand last time to ease the water down but saw the easier method is to pop a bunch of holes in the bag and fill the bag with water to slowly drain out.

 

[BubblesandSqueak]

I do have a RO filter system just the trips to store would be faster to get this much water upfront. Otherwise I think it would be about 5 gallons of water per hour. And need to do outside in freezing temps since I can only hook up to exterior hose bib.

 

[JoJosReef]

This is what I was interested in. I’m actually doing caribsea pink and adding the live rock afterwards. It’s OK to place the sand and fill with RO then mix in salt? (The 15% off was a good deal on rock). I’m thinking it would take me 2 days to fill with RO from the driving trips. Then once it fills, I can mix salt in. Just wasn’t sure if I’d be killing any bacteria in the caribsea sand by not adding salt for 2 days. I have an ATO and skimmer. I used the bag from the sand last time to ease the water down but saw the easier method is to pop a bunch of holes in the bag and fill the bag with water to slowly drain out.

If it were me, I would mix the saltwater in the tank first then pour in the sand. Remove maybe 40gal before adding the sand, then top back up to fill level and keep the remaining for a quick water change or help with keeping the rocks wet. It will be super cloudy for a while, but will eventually settle and you'll have a tank ready to put the rocks in.

NOTE: if you are planning to get sand sifting fish or inverts, you'll want to make sure the rocks are touching the glass bottom and not sitting right on top of the sand. The burrowing they do can shift the rocks if they aren't stable, putting the fish/inverts at risk and also any coral that's attached to the rocks.

 

[BubblesandSqueak]

If it were me, I would mix the saltwater in the tank first then pour in the sand. Remove maybe 40gal before adding the sand, then top back up to fill level and keep the remaining for a quick water change or help with keeping the rocks wet. It will be super cloudy for a while, but will eventually settle and you'll have a tank ready to put the rocks in.

NOTE: if you are planning to get sand sifting fish or inverts, you'll want to make sure the rocks are touching the glass bottom and not sitting right on top of the sand. The burrowing they do can shift the rocks if they aren't stable, putting the fish/inverts at risk and also any coral that's attached to the rocks.

thanks. that's great advice that I'm looking for on how to do such a large volume quickly. I actually bought these egg crate things to keep the rock off the glass that clip together making a 24" footprint of the 36" tank bottom. goal is to keep a 6" difference away from the glass sides. And yes, the jawfish I have displaces A LOT of sand tossing it everywhere. Though it is the most active and entertaining one in there. possibly what I may do then is rinse the sand bag off first, then place in the tank of water and slice the bottom of the bag open and slowly lift up. might be less clouding than falling through the water column. I hope this all goes well. I only have like every other day to do this with other activities.

 

[brandon429]

A brand new example of a true skip cycle with cured rocks

Rapid Cycling 125g Reef Tank Questions/Thoughts

I'm upgrading to a 125 with trigger system 32 sump/refugium. Was experimenting with how quickly I could cycle so tried the following: - 120 pounds of live sand (crushed coral ~3in) - 135lbs of live rock from a 15 year old system. tons of stuff i've observed on these rocks including some ugly...

www.reef2reef.com

when it was stated prior that skip cycling is a misnomer, that there’s risk on file, we have some links to show it’s not a risk / still waiting for a link that shows it is.

skip cycling has utility / benefits an aquarist it’s not just for the ire of old science cycling adherents


by being able to command a skip cycle he moved tanks without any loss or failure of biosystem, which saved him money. The reason he wasn’t confident right at the start is solely due to false information stated in this thread, that skip cycling is a made up term with no reliability.

thats why accuracy in cycling science matters: the truth lends total tank control and prevention of losses and is very resolved and deliberate when undertaking skip cycle works

 

[BiCoastal]

You can mix the salt in the tank. There's nothing in there that would be affected by salinity swings. And added bonus is you can dial in the ATO and any other equipment ahead of time.

When the rock comes, you can remove the amount of water for displacement and add your rocks into the tank directly. Are you planning to aquascape in real time or dump the rocks and let them hang out for a bit, picking off unwanted critters? If aquascaping, I recommend having a second person handy to keep the rocks wet while out of the water by dripping tank water over them while you handle it and get reef cement in the right places. This will also help you minimize any die-off. Base rock might not have as much that is affected by the air as premium, which has tons of sponges (don't expose sponges to air if possible), but still might have life on it that would be happier staying wet.

Are you using TBS sand? If so, I recommend taking it slowly and sifting the sand. It's all good sand, but you can sometimes pick out a few hitchhikers you don't want by having a large pan with some tank water in it, dropping a scoop of sand in and spreading it thin to pull out anything bad. I would mostly be looking for isopods or undesirable worms--most worms aren't bad, just a few.

Salt Water can be sitting by itself forever if you want, as long as you're topping it off to keep the salinity stable. If not, it will evaporate and you'll be adding rocks to hypersaline water.

@JoJosReef if you don’t mind can I ask you about the aquascaping comment you made. I have been trying to look up info on how to glue/cement together live rock (like KP base rock) and haven’t really found any detailed info. You mention using a cement for that. Can you say some more please. What long of cement and doesn’t it dry while the rocks are wet? And how long to dry the cement before placing the rock back into the water. I have been debating live rock but the aquascaping part has been holding me back. I don’t want to just stack the rocks in a pile (not into fancy NSSA aquascapes either, just something that looks nice and works for the fish)

 

[JoJosReef]

@JoJosReef if you don’t mind can I ask you about the aquascaping comment you made. I have been trying to look up info on how to glue/cement together live rock (like KP base rock) and haven’t really found any detailed info. You mention using a cement for that. Can you say some more please. What long of cement and doesn’t it dry while the rocks are wet? And how long to dry the cement before placing the rock back into the water. I have been debating live rock but the aquascaping part has been holding me back. I don’t want to just stack the rocks in a pile (not into fancy NSSA aquascapes either, just something that looks nice and works for the fish)

Yes, aquascaping live rock is more frustrating than any pests they bring in. I prioritize keeping as much life as possible on the premium rock I buy, so I continually wet the rock while it is outside of the water.

This is going to get you wet.

I first take the pieces that make the most sense as the base rocks and start adding them to the tank. You have to be imaginative, unlike dry rock where you can arange pieces 100 ways first.

Next, I take the pieces I'm stacking, whether as a pointed mountain, horseshoe shaped island, or bridging two base rocks. Test them in the water to find where the key weight bearing points are. Does it sit by itself? If so, next step is take the rock back out, have your partner ready N balls of 2 part cement--my favorite is 2 Little Fishies, but others like Seachem, Nyos or Ocean Wonders--where N equals number of weight bearing points. Add super glue to the bottom of the rock on the weight bearing points (you can tap dry the points with paper towels to help the CA glue stick, keeping the rest of the rock wet with dripping tank water), half-smash the balls of cement onto the CA glue and wait a short while to let the CA glue set (here you can wiggle/twist the balls to get the glue adhering to the cement ball, just like for frags), then blob CA glue onto the bottom of the cement balls, turn the rock over and into the tank, settling the rock as best you can onto the weight bearing points, lightly pressing down to flatten the cement ball onto the base rock's weight beaing points.

Swear as you find out your points were off by a quarter inch, and try to reposition so that the cement is compressing around the real weight bearing points. Worst case, remove and repeat. I always have extra cement handy.

Use your gloved fingers to massage the cement ball that's sticking out from the weight bearing points so that it flattens against the bottom and top rocks, cradling both. Release and pray it stays where it is so you can let it set. If a third rock is going on top, go slam 3 shots and take a 5 min breather. Hopefully the middle rock sets enough so it doesn't all come apart when you press the third rock on top.

If a rock doesn't sit by itself in the position you want it, you can still cement it there, but that will require extreme patience holding the rocks in place or propping them while the cement cures in the water.

That's the basics of it. Find the weight bearing points and CA glue sandwich a cement ball at each point so that once it cures, the rocks are somewhat balancing but not moving side to side and are more stable than simple stacked rocks. If you lift the top rock up, it will likely comes loose from the cement because it is hard to get cement to fully form joints around weight bearing points like dry rock cemented outside the tank.

Keep the rocks wet, but feel free to dry the weight bearing points.

Hope that wasn't too long a read!

 

[BiCoastal]

Yes, aquascaping live rock is more frustrating than any pests they bring in. I prioritize keeping as much life as possible on the premium rock I buy, so I continually wet the rock while it is outside of the water.

This is going to get you wet.

I first take the pieces that make the most sense as the base rocks and start adding them to the tank. You have to be imaginative, unlike dry rock where you can arange pieces 100 ways first.

Next, I take the pieces I'm stacking, whether as a pointed mountain, horseshoe shaped island, or bridging two base rocks. Test them in the water to find where the key weight bearing points are. Does it sit by itself? If so, next step is take the rock back out, have your partner ready N balls of 2 part cement--my favorite is 2 Little Fishies, but others like Seachem, Nyos or Ocean Wonders--where N equals number of weight bearing points. Add super glue to the bottom of the rock on the weight bearing points (you can tap dry the points with paper towels to help the CA glue stick, keeping the rest of the rock wet with dripping tank water), half-smash the balls of cement onto the CA glue and wait a short while to let the CA glue set (here you can wiggle/twist the balls to get the glue adhering to the cement ball, just like for frags), then blob CA glue onto the bottom of the cement balls, turn the rock over and into the tank, settling the rock as best you can onto the weight bearing points, lightly pressing down to flatten the cement ball onto the base rock's weight beaing points.

Swear as you find out your points were off by a quarter inch, and try to reposition so that the cement is compressing around the real weight bearing points. Worst case, remove and repeat. I always have extra cement handy.

Use your gloved fingers to massage the cement ball that's sticking out from the weight bearing points so that it flattens against the bottom and top rocks, cradling both. Release and pray it stays where it is so you can let it set. If a third rock is going on top, go slam 3 shots and take a 5 min breather. Hopefully the middle rock sets enough so it doesn't all come apart when you press the third rock on top.

If a rock doesn't sit by itself in the position you want it, you can still cement it there, but that will require extreme patience holding the rocks in place or propping them while the cement cures in the water.

That's the basics of it. Find the weight bearing points and CA glue sandwich a cement ball at each point so that once it cures, the rocks are somewhat balancing but not moving side to side and are more stable than simple stacked rocks. If you lift the top rock up, it will likely comes loose from the cement because it is hard to get cement to fully form joints around weight bearing points like dry rock cemented outside the tank.

Keep the rocks wet, but feel free to dry the weight bearing points.

Hope that wasn't too long a read!

Thankyou!
this is fantastic information. I have some dry rock lying around in the garage, I will experiment with that first as I wait for the tank to be delivered

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

@JoJosReef if you don’t mind can I ask you about the aquascaping comment you made. I have been trying to look up info on how to glue/cement together live rock (like KP base rock) and haven’t really found any detailed info. You mention using a cement for that. Can you say some more please. What long of cement and doesn’t it dry while the rocks are wet? And how long to dry the cement before placing the rock back into the water. I have been debating live rock but the aquascaping part has been holding me back. I don’t want to just stack the rocks in a pile (not into fancy NSSA aquascapes either, just something that looks nice and works for the fish)

I'm not sure why you want to cement your rocks together in the first place. I mean, a couple pieces here and there to create a larger piece, sure... But if you ever need to quickly tear down the tank (like, to remove a rogue hitchhiker that came in on live rock, for example), you're going to wish you had just carefully stacked it... many of the pieces will "fit" together nicely due to the nature of the rock; it just takes some time to play with it and figure out what looks good to you.