Cyphastrea help

[LongBeachReefer562]

I’ve had a JASON FOX BURNIN BANANA (cyphastrea) for 4 months now. It was doing excellent and encrusting onto the rock work, seemed to be off to a great start.

A couple weeks back it looked bland in color so I hit it with the turkey baster thinking it was dirty and flesh started flaking off along the edges. It doesn’t seem to be getting better, if anything slightly worse.

I have no idea what caused this, no major alk spikes or lighting adjustments or flow changes.

One suspicion is that I’ve been fighting my bottomed out nitrates for a few months now, but I don’t think this would kill it. I also had MOnti eating nudibranchs a couple months back that have fingers crossed been eradicated but I don’t think they eat cyphastrea. I also had a Calc spike around the same time where I screwed up on timer and Calc hit 490.

Any input on what may have caused this? Also moving forward should I break off the plug and dip or leave and hope for the best?

Im 25 lagoon ext, 10 g sump
24” aquatic life hybrid
kessil a80
ReefBrite 24”

alk - 8.7
Ca - 450
Mg - 1375
Phos - 0.02
Nitrate - 0 (bottomed out, working on getting up)
Ph - 8.1-8.3

 

[Dkmoo]

The 0 no3 suggest that its starved of nutrients. I don't see anything else wrong parameter-wise

How have you been addressing the no3? Keep in mind that coral doesn't DIRECTLY need a lot of no3 - its the zoox that primarily needs it. What corals needs nutrition-wise is more disolved organics, aminos and protein. When people say getting your no3 level to the "sweet spot of 5-10ppm". What really should be happening is giving your corals more nutrition from organics, amino and protein, and whatever excess that corals can't absorb is then taken by bacteriaqnd filter eaters and convert to no3/po4, and the rest of the organism down the nitrogen process then takes up the no3/po4 (algae, zoox) and the result of that complete biological process results in a 5ppm to 10ppm no3 remaining in your tank.

If you are dosing N with products like ESV b-ionic or neonitro, then it may not be giving you the result you want. These products have nitrate and nitrogen salts as active ingredients that will raise no3 directly, but doesn't give your coral the direct nutrition they need. Id either dose amino, or target feed more

 

[Saltyreef]

I notice this when my nutrients are askew with cyph.
Right now its receeding quite rapidly from high nitrates and phosphates.

 

[LongBeachReefer562]

The 0 no3 suggest that its starved of nutrients. I don't see anything else wrong parameter-wise

How have you been addressing the no3? Keep in mind that coral doesn't DIRECTLY need a lot of no3 - its the zoox that primarily needs it. What corals needs nutrition-wise is more disolved organics, aminos and protein. When people say getting your no3 level to the "sweet spot of 5-10ppm". What really should be happening is giving your corals more nutrition from organics, amino and protein, and whatever excess that corals can't absorb is then taken by bacteriaqnd filter eaters and convert to no3/po4, and the rest of the organism down the nitrogen process then takes up the no3/po4 (algae, zoox) and the result of that complete biological process results in a 5ppm to 10ppm no3 remaining in your tank.

If you are dosing N with products like ESV b-ionic or neonitro, then it may not be giving you the result you want. These products have nitrate and nitrogen salts as active ingredients that will raise no3 directly, but doesn't give your coral the direct nutrition they need. Id either dose amino, or target feed more

Thanks for your feedback!

I target feed reef Roids weekly and daily feed frozen baby brine shrimp for my mandarins so I feel like they’re getting the organics.

but for whatever reason if I try raising my nitrates with excess feeding, my nitrates stay at 0 and my po4 spikes.

yesterday I got Sodium Nitrate and will start dosing 3 times a week.
Do aminos raise po4 and nitrate? Also should I bump up target feeding to twice a week?

 

[Dkmoo]

Thanks for your feedback!

I target feed reef Roids weekly and daily feed frozen baby brine shrimp for my mandarins so I feel like they’re getting the organics.

but for whatever reason if I try raising my nitrates with excess feeding, my nitrates stay at 0 and my po4 spikes.

yesterday I got Sodium Nitrate and will start dosing 3 times a week.
Do aminos raise po4 and nitrate? Also should I bump up target feeding to twice a week?

Ok here is a "reef nutrition 101" primer for ya. Might be long but should be helpful.

First of all, all organisms uptake N and P in a fixed ratio (google Redfield ratio and its related research). Here i dont just mean no3 and po4. N means all nitrogen nutrition sources like amino, proteins, ammonia, no2, and no3. Likewise, P includes po4 as well as dissolved organics, waste, and freeflowing p ions. In nature, the ocean averages out to about 16N to 1P, but different organism's N to P uptake have ratios that are slightly different. I dont remember the exact numbers. But generally, corals and algae are 20-22N to 1P. Phytoplanktons 16:1, bacteria/pods/fish: 5-10N to 1P.

So when tanks struggle with high po4 and low/no no3, that simply means the NP ratio of what you feed doesn't match the NP ratio of what ur tank uptakes and exports. In your case,, either you are putting in too much P, or your tank isn't processing enough P. Let's look at each

Input
Reef roids - their main ingredient is plankton, so should be pretty close to the default NP ratio

Brine - meaty foods tend to have relatively more P since its shrimp. Generally higher up the food chain has more P. But in your case it should be fine bc meaty food offer a lot more benefits in other areas. When you feed, do you keep the melted "juice"? I've heard anecdotal reports that the juice contains high P depending on the maker of the brine ice cube tho have not been able to verify.

Proteins - mostly made up amino acid chains but can contain P

Amino - a simple peptide chains of C, O, H and N. Contains no P.

So on the input side I think what you are currently doing is fine, upping reefroid is ok but adding amino is better. Adding sodium nitrate can help too indirectly on the uptake side ( more on that later)

Uptake

This is where I think your issues are. Your tank currently uptake N a lot more than P. usually points to a lack of biodiversity/maturity/balance. How old is the tank? Low P uptake/high N uptake usually points to your established bacteria/pods population (or even fish) being low relative to your algae/coral population. If your tank is young, then really time is the only true long term solution for these various organisms to stabilize. If your tank is already mature and established, then really you just need to match the "in" ratio with the "out". Dosing more N will help. Recall that everything uptake N and P in fix ratio - this means when your N is low, the P absorption slows down too. This is where dosing specifically sodium nitrate can help po4 even if it doesn't directly benefit your corals. Since algae takes up no3/po4, directly increasing no3 will unlock ur algae growth that will then absorb the po4 too. Do you have a fuge? This will help make sure the algae growth is contained in the fuge, instead of a potential GHA explosion in your DT or excess zoox growth (remember zoox is algae too) that will cause coral browning.

Dosing amino in this case may help indirectly with PO4 by enabling corals take more P from protein and disolved organics before they become po4, tho the exact processes there im not too certain

Export

Skimmer - Pulls out mostly waste and dissolved organics, will contain n and p closer to average, slightly leaning more P side

WC - depends on the concentration from test results. Doing it now when you have no no3 will mean its all P being exported. The detritus being vacuumed out will also slightly more P than N.

Manual removal of algae - will be specifc to the ratio of the algae used. Ie chaeto/gha. 22:1

GFO - only pulls Po4 - super effective but also can mask other problem and delay/prevent tank from reaching natural maturation and balance. Not recommended unless you have a very good handle on the rest of the biological and nutrient cycle of your tank. It doesn't address the true culprit of your tank's N to P imbalance and will come back as soon as you stop using GFO

Bottom line, its simply about matching your "in" with the "out". Once you understand how nutrients travel thru your system, you can make more educated decisions on how to adjust either your "in" or "out". Over time, the NP ratio of your tank will change as corals and fish grow, so its important to keep this in mind and adjust accordingly.

 

[LongBeachReefer562]

Ok here is a "reef nutrition 101" primer for ya. Might be long but should be helpful.

First of all, all organisms uptake N and P in a fixed ratio (google Redfield ratio and its related research). Here i dont just mean no3 and po4. N means all nitrogen nutrition sources like amino, proteins, ammonia, no2, and no3. Likewise, P includes po4 as well as dissolved organics, waste, and freeflowing p ions. In nature, the ocean averages out to about 16N to 1P, but different organism's N to P uptake have ratios that are slightly different. I dont remember the exact numbers. But generally, corals and algae are 20-22N to 1P. Phytoplanktons 16:1, bacteria/pods/fish: 5-10N to 1P.

So when tanks struggle with high po4 and low/no no3, that simply means the NP ratio of what you feed doesn't match the NP ratio of what ur tank uptakes and exports. In your case,, either you are putting in too much P, or your tank isn't processing enough P. Let's look at each

Input
Reef roids - their main ingredient is plankton, so should be pretty close to the default NP ratio

Brine - meaty foods tend to have relatively more P since its shrimp. Generally higher up the food chain has more P. But in your case it should be fine bc meaty food offer a lot more benefits in other areas. When you feed, do you keep the melted "juice"? I've heard anecdotal reports that the juice contains high P depending on the maker of the brine ice cube tho have not been able to verify.

Proteins - mostly made up amino acid chains but can contain P

Amino - a simple peptide chains of C, O, H and N. Contains no P.

So on the input side I think what you are currently doing is fine, upping reefroid is ok but adding amino is better. Adding sodium nitrate can help too indirectly on the uptake side ( more on that later)

Uptake

This is where I think your issues are. Your tank currently uptake N a lot more than P. usually points to a lack of biodiversity/maturity/balance. How old is the tank? Low P uptake/high N uptake usually points to your established bacteria/pods population (or even fish) being low relative to your algae/coral population. If your tank is young, then really time is the only true long term solution for these various organisms to stabilize. If your tank is already mature and established, then really you just need to match the "in" ratio with the "out". Dosing more N will help. Recall that everything uptake N and P in fix ratio - this means when your N is low, the P absorption slows down too. This is where dosing specifically sodium nitrate can help po4 even if it doesn't directly benefit your corals. Since algae takes up no3/po4, directly increasing no3 will unlock ur algae growth that will then absorb the po4 too. Do you have a fuge? This will help make sure the algae growth is contained in the fuge, instead of a potential GHA explosion in your DT or excess zoox growth (remember zoox is algae too) that will cause coral browning.

Dosing amino in this case may help indirectly with PO4 by enabling corals take more P from protein and disolved organics before they become po4, tho the exact processes there im not too certain

Export

Skimmer - Pulls out mostly waste and dissolved organics, will contain n and p closer to average, slightly leaning more P side

WC - depends on the concentration from test results. Doing it now when you have no no3 will mean its all P being exported. The detritus being vacuumed out will also slightly more P than N.

Manual removal of algae - will be specifc to the ratio of the algae used. Ie chaeto/gha. 22:1

GFO - only pulls Po4 - super effective but also can mask other problem and delay/prevent tank from reaching natural maturation and balance. Not recommended unless you have a very good handle on the rest of the biological and nutrient cycle of your tank. It doesn't address the true culprit of your tank's N to P imbalance and will come back as soon as you stop using GFO

Bottom line, its simply about matching your "in" with the "out". Once you understand how nutrients travel thru your system, you can make more educated decisions on how to adjust either your "in" or "out". Over time, the NP ratio of your tank will change as corals and fish grow, so its important to keep this in mind and adjust accordingly.

Cant thank you enough for all your advice! Really made a whole lot of sense, I've concluded I was more than likely starving my tank of nutrition, even if that wasnt the root it still had to be corrected. I've changed things up quite a bit based on your info and some additional research.

N03 - keeping at 5-7ppm. Been hand dosing sodium nitrate every few days. The first couple days I got a small cyano bloom but it seems to be 90% cleared up. My N03 intake seems to be about 0.4ppm/day, not sure if that's normal. Going to start auto dosing

Po4 - keeping at .04ppm. Once I started dosing N03 my P04 intake went up pretty quick. To adjust this I made a frozen mix using 15ish shrimp, 1/2 cup of xtreme reef pellets, sheet of Nori, reef roids, RO and then blended and filled a couple freezer bags (about 1/4" thick for easy break off) and froze. I have been adding a piece daily when feeding the mandarins where I kill the return for 40 mins and leave power heads on. The fish get the big pieces the rest blows around for filter feeders and to get into the water column. This has helped keep my PO4 in line.

proteins/Fatty acids - I would imagine the mix I mentioned above is helping quite a bit with this.

aminos - I decided to go with Acro Power since it doesnt need to be refrigerated (like reed sea A&B does since it has fatty acids) so I can just dose it.

Thanks again for your help man!

Yeah I have a fuge with a bio block and a pot growing LED screw in bulb. I had chateo in there for a while but pulled once I noticed my nitrates had bottomed out. I would consider the tank pretty mature, it's about 14 months old and everything is pretty covered in coraline. Dont mind the dying monti in the back, it's been in the fuge for a month while battling MEN.

 

[Dkmoo]

Cant thank you enough for all your advice! Really made a whole lot of sense, I've concluded I was more than likely starving my tank of nutrition, even if that wasnt the root it still had to be corrected. I've changed things up quite a bit based on your info and some additional research.

N03 - keeping at 5-7ppm. Been hand dosing sodium nitrate every few days. The first couple days I got a small cyano bloom but it seems to be 90% cleared up. My N03 intake seems to be about 0.4ppm/day, not sure if that's normal. Going to start auto dosing

Po4 - keeping at .04ppm. Once I started dosing N03 my P04 intake went up pretty quick. To adjust this I made a frozen mix using 15ish shrimp, 1/2 cup of xtreme reef pellets, sheet of Nori, reef roids, RO and then blended and filled a couple freezer bags (about 1/4" thick for easy break off) and froze. I have been adding a piece daily when feeding the mandarins where I kill the return for 40 mins and leave power heads on. The fish get the big pieces the rest blows around for filter feeders and to get into the water column. This has helped keep my PO4 in line.

proteins/Fatty acids - I would imagine the mix I mentioned above is helping quite a bit with this.

aminos - I decided to go with Acro Power since it doesnt need to be refrigerated (like reed sea A&B does since it has fatty acids) so I can just dose it.

Thanks again for your help man!

Yeah I have a fuge with a bio block and a pot growing LED screw in bulb. I had chateo in there for a while but pulled once I noticed my nitrates had bottomed out. I would consider the tank pretty mature, it's about 14 months old and everything is pretty covered in coraline. Dont mind the dying monti in the back, it's been in the fuge for a month while battling MEN.

Tank looks great. Looks like you are on the right path. Keep up with what your doing and the research - its part of the fun (for me at least). I always try to figure out why we say to keep certain things at certain levels instead of just chasing numbers. There are a lot of nuances in this microenvironment waiting for us to discover =)