Decent Nitrates, undetectable phosphates, cyano/brown algae accumulating 3 times a day

[testuser]

Hi All,

I recently learned that my undetectable phosphate levels (at least with Salifert) could have potentially been the recent culprit for several of my corals dying off (in other threads). I have a 4.8g nano tank, and regular feeding with Reef Roids and LPS pellets had zero visible effect on my phosphate levels. However, I have very fast cyano and brown algae growth on the sand and liverock. Also, my tank is a bit over 3 months old.

• Nitrates: ~10ppm
• Phosphates: ~0 (undetectable)
• Pump at the top and random flow wave maker on the center right against the rock, opposite of the drain

About 3 times a day, I blow the rock and sand with a tube to kick it up into the water column to be sent to the filter sock. During the day, it takes about 3 hours for about a 1/4" of cyano to start dancing on top of the sand where there isn't strong water turbulence. It's difficult to have it everywhere without disrupting the coral.

Two questions:

• To combat the undetectable phosphate levels, I have been dosing with NeoPhos daily at the maximum calculated dosage per the instructions, which would be ~0.75ml. I imagine that this is the max and best that I can do, correct? Would I dose that amount every 24hrs, or is there wiggle room for more?
• Does the undetectable phosphate level contribute to the cyano/brown algae outbreak on the sand bed and live rock?

In the meantime, my micromussa is extra moody and pulled in pretty tight, and I imagine that given the rest of my water chemistry is stable and at good levels, that the undetectable phosphates is what's making it upset.

Thanks in advance!

 

[Uncle99]

I had a hard time dialing in phosphate with the Salifert test, it may not be zero. Zero in either or both favors pest bacteria and algaes.

Only the Hanna in PPB gave me workable results.

When you dose phosphate, wait 24hrs and retest, see what that dose meant in terms of level, then hit it again, 24, retest…..etc…
Once you hit the level say 0.05ppm-.1ppm stop, and wait a week for another test. We want to maintain both nitrate and phosphate in the band and virtually remaining unchanged on a week to week basis. At this point, what’s going in (foods wastes) is being taken out on a consistent basis.

Phosphate is as important as nitrate for the living reef, it’s a contributor to coral growth.

It the stability of your chemistry that in the end, leads to the growth of those micro fauna items, that keep sand and rocks clean long term. These guys take a bit to get into sufficient numbers.

 

[testuser]

Two questions:

• To combat the undetectable phosphate levels, I have been dosing with NeoPhos daily at the maximum calculated dosage per the instructions, which would be ~0.75ml. I imagine that this is the max and best that I can do, correct? Would I dose that amount every 24hrs, or is there wiggle room for more?
• Does the undetectable phosphate level contribute to the cyano/brown algae outbreak on the sand bed and live rock?

In the meantime, my micromussa is extra moody and pulled in pretty tight, and I imagine that given the rest of my water chemistry is stable and at good levels, that the undetectable phosphates is what's making it upset.

Thanks in advance!

Could anyone here please answer either of my two questions? Thanks!

 

[Garf]

Could anyone here please answer either of my two questions? Thanks!

If your dosing phosphate it may be being bound by your sand and rock. However, that is not instantaneous and will flow over your coral and algae’s etc to get there. I also had trouble reading the Salifert kit, even at higher levels, and plumped for a Hanna checker (albeit I now use API reagents in it).
3 months is very young for a tank. I would ensure salinity and temperature are good (how are you controlling those?). In such a small tank, you really got to be on the ball.

 

[gbroadbridge]

Hi All,

I recently learned that my undetectable phosphate levels (at least with Salifert) could have potentially been the recent culprit for several of my corals dying off (in other threads). I have a 4.8g nano tank, and regular feeding with Reef Roids and LPS pellets had zero visible effect on my phosphate levels. However, I have very fast cyano and brown algae growth on the sand and liverock. Also, my tank is a bit over 3 months old.

• Nitrates: ~10ppm
• Phosphates: ~0 (undetectable)
• Pump at the top and random flow wave maker on the center right against the rock, opposite of the drain

About 3 times a day, I blow the rock and sand with a tube to kick it up into the water column to be sent to the filter sock. During the day, it takes about 3 hours for about a 1/4" of cyano to start dancing on top of the sand where there isn't strong water turbulence. It's difficult to have it everywhere without disrupting the coral.

Two questions:

• To combat the undetectable phosphate levels, I have been dosing with NeoPhos daily at the maximum calculated dosage per the instructions, which would be ~0.75ml. I imagine that this is the max and best that I can do, correct? Would I dose that amount every 24hrs, or is there wiggle room for more?
• Does the undetectable phosphate level contribute to the cyano/brown algae outbreak on the sand bed and live rock?

In the meantime, my micromussa is extra moody and pulled in pretty tight, and I imagine that given the rest of my water chemistry is stable and at good levels, that the undetectable phosphates is what's making it upset.

Thanks in advance!

You said the tank is only 3 months old.

This is just the ugly phase which will continue for at least another 3-6 months.

Just keep cleaning it up.

I wouldn't be dosing anything other than food.

 

[formallydehyde]

I'm relatively new at this but that sounds like there's probably too many nutrients going into the tank if they can grow like that, and the speed of their growth (especially in such a small volume) might be giving you deceivingly low test results.
I have a 20 gallon tank and I noticed if I overfeed my nitrate and phosphates stay the same (basically undetectable for both) and the main indicator is increased algal growth and a bloom of filter feeders. Also inorganic nitrate and phosphate isn't the only way tank microbes can consume nitrogen and phosphorus, even if they're good indicators.

 

[testuser]

I'm relatively new at this but that sounds like there's probably too many nutrients going into the tank if they can grow like that, and the speed of their growth (especially in such a small volume) might be giving you deceivingly low test results.
I have a 20 gallon tank and I noticed if I overfeed my nitrate and phosphates stay the same (basically undetectable for both) and the main indicator is increased algal growth and a bloom of filter feeders. Also inorganic nitrate and phosphate isn't the only way tank microbes can consume nitrogen and phosphorus, even if they're good indicators.

For what it's worth, I've limited my feeding to once a week, but still have the same results. It may get better since I've recently adjusted the position of the wave maker as well as the random flow/intensity. I've also started to change the filter socks more frequently, but we will see I guess.

 

[testuser]

You said the tank is only 3 months old.

This is just the ugly phase which will continue for at least another 3-6 months.

Just keep cleaning it up.

I wouldn't be dosing anything other than food.

Unfortunately (per several other threads), it appears as though too low of nitrates and phosphates off'd several of my coral as that seemed to be the only explanation. I probably would have had better luck though starting off with coral post 3-6 months, but live and learn (a lot of learning). But fair enough with the tank age, it is most likely the case of the uglies.

 

[testuser]

If your dosing phosphate it may be being bound by your sand and rock. However, that is not instantaneous and will flow over your coral and algae’s etc to get there. I also had trouble reading the Salifert kit, even at higher levels, and plumped for a Hanna checker (albeit I now use API reagents in it).
3 months is very young for a tank. I would ensure salinity and temperature are good (how are you controlling those?). In such a small tank, you really got to be on the ball.

Salinity and temperature are stable: salinity I check with a refractometer and I do 20% water changes weekly. As far as temperature goes, my house is pretty consistent, and I check the temperature regularly and it is the same to the decimal, which is nice. Water chemistry has generally been fine, it's just always the bottoming out of phosphates and nitrates (but now no longer nitrates, so it's some progress).

 

[Garf]

Salinity and temperature are stable: salinity I check with a refractometer and I do 20% water changes weekly. As far as temperature goes, my house is pretty consistent, and I check the temperature regularly and it is the same to the decimal, which is nice. Water chemistry has generally been fine, it's just always the bottoming out of phosphates and nitrates (but now no longer nitrates, so it's some progress).

Can you not ease up on the waterchanges slightly, 20% is a lot, even for me.

 

[testuser]

Can you not ease up on the waterchanges slightly, 20% is a lot, even for me.

I'm just going by what BRS says and most people have said when reading up on reefing. It's a 4.8g tank too, so what is the suggestion here? I haven't seen anyone on this forum suggest a lower percentage, especially for such a small tank. Would you suggest less frequent, or smaller amount per week? I'm assuming with regards to helping out with the cyano, right?

 

[Garf]

I'm just going by what BRS says and most people have said when reading up on reefing. It's a 4.8g tank too, so what is the suggestion here? I haven't seen anyone on this forum suggest a lower percentage, especially for such a small tank. Would you suggest less frequent, or smaller amount per week? I'm assuming with regards to helping out with the cyano, right?

I was thinking more to reduce swinging of elements , temperature, salinity etc and help increase phosphate. I have next to no experience with cyano. Nearly 20 years ago I had a patch in a 500 gallon system related to low flow and food sticking under a rock, and in this 60 gallon tank a patch eminating from underneath a montipora cap, same reason, food stuck under it. Easily solved with extra flow in my cases, sorry.
Like stated above, ugly stage can be a bit of a ball ache.

 

[jabberwock]

I'm just going by what BRS says and most people have said when reading up on reefing. It's a 4.8g tank too, so what is the suggestion here? I haven't seen anyone on this forum suggest a lower percentage, especially for such a small tank. Would you suggest less frequent, or smaller amount per week? I'm assuming with regards to helping out with the cyano, right?

For a tiny tank like that, you can try micro daily water changes. 8 oz out, replace with 8 oz new.

 

[Dan_P]

Hi All,

I recently learned that my undetectable phosphate levels (at least with Salifert) could have potentially been the recent culprit for several of my corals dying off (in other threads). I have a 4.8g nano tank, and regular feeding with Reef Roids and LPS pellets had zero visible effect on my phosphate levels. However, I have very fast cyano and brown algae growth on the sand and liverock. Also, my tank is a bit over 3 months old.

• Nitrates: ~10ppm
• Phosphates: ~0 (undetectable)
• Pump at the top and random flow wave maker on the center right against the rock, opposite of the drain

About 3 times a day, I blow the rock and sand with a tube to kick it up into the water column to be sent to the filter sock. During the day, it takes about 3 hours for about a 1/4" of cyano to start dancing on top of the sand where there isn't strong water turbulence. It's difficult to have it everywhere without disrupting the coral.

Two questions:

• To combat the undetectable phosphate levels, I have been dosing with NeoPhos daily at the maximum calculated dosage per the instructions, which would be ~0.75ml. I imagine that this is the max and best that I can do, correct? Would I dose that amount every 24hrs, or is there wiggle room for more?
• Does the undetectable phosphate level contribute to the cyano/brown algae outbreak on the sand bed and live rock?

In the meantime, my micromussa is extra moody and pulled in pretty tight, and I imagine that given the rest of my water chemistry is stable and at good levels, that the undetectable phosphates is what's making it upset.

Thanks in advance!

I don’t think there are any rules about how fast to increase the phosphate level. Did you ever check shortly after adding phosphate, what the level was in the water? How fast does it become undetectable again?

If you have cyanobacteria and undectable phosphate folks will say it is because of the phosphate. If you have cyanobacteria and detectable phosphate folks will blame something else.

 

[testuser]

I don’t think there are any rules about how fast to increase the phosphate level. Did you ever check shortly after adding phosphate, what the level was in the water? How fast does it become undetectable again?

If you have cyanobacteria and undectable phosphate folks will say it is because of the phosphate. If you have cyanobacteria and detectable phosphate folks will blame something else.

Yeah, I've tested it about an hour later and it was still pretty clear (undetectable). It's rough out there haha. Nitrates are A-OK though at least...

 

[Dan_P]

Yeah, I've tested it about an hour later and it was still pretty clear (undetectable). It's rough out there haha. Nitrates are A-OK though at least...

If you don’t detect phosphate after dosing, up the dose until you do.

 

[testuser]

If you don’t detect phosphate after dosing, up the dose until you do.

That's exactly what I was stuck on, thank you for that! The warnings on the back of NeoPhos made me think that 0.75 per 24hrs was the theoretical limit, otherwise it could harm my corals. I will try 0.75ml again tomorrow morning, wait for it to disperse for maybe 30min, and then test again. Rinse, repeat. This may be the answer that I needed for helping resolve this (or a piece to the puzzle). Thank you!

 

[saltcats]

That's exactly what I was stuck on, thank you for that! The warnings on the back of NeoPhos made me think that 0.75 per 24hrs was the theoretical limit, otherwise it could harm my corals. I will try 0.75ml again tomorrow morning, wait for it to disperse for maybe 30min, and then test again. Rinse, repeat. This may be the answer that I needed for helping resolve this (or a piece to the puzzle). Thank you!

If I am thinking of the part of the instructions I think you're referring to - NeoPhos is suggesting usage in an "Ultra Low Nutrient" system and recommending per that methodology that you never let phosphate get above 0.04ppm which... is definitely ultra low!
I am dealing with a similar nutrient issue and was suggested by other reefers to target 0.05 - 0.1ppm phosphate so you can calculate the appropriate dosage for that using their formula.

 

[testuser]

If I am thinking of the part of the instructions I think you're referring to - NeoPhos is suggesting usage in an "Ultra Low Nutrient" system and recommending per that methodology that you never let phosphate get above 0.04ppm which... is definitely ultra low!
I am dealing with a similar nutrient issue and was suggested by other reefers to target 0.05 - 0.1ppm phosphate so you can calculate the appropriate dosage for that using their formula.

Perfect! I'll give it a shot after I measure it post dosing tomorrow morning and report back. Man... I'd be happy with at least 0.04ppm at this point, haha

 

[testuser]

If you don’t detect phosphate after dosing, up the dose until you do.

Strangely enough, I dosed multiple times over the span of the day and after each test (waiting 30min to an hour) yielded a clear result. I know that the Salifert kit works, as I've seen it turn a pale blue. Is there any suggested/better additive than NeoPhos? I am certain that my corals are not thrilled due to the low phosphate. Any recommendations on something better? I don't feel comfortable repeatedly dosing in a single day and still seeing undetectable results.