Delicate / Difficult Wrasse

[griff500]

I had a Femininus that lasted ten days and then suddenly died. It was fat, strong colour, had been eating absolutely everything it could get hold of (even joining in with the algae grazer rings, etc), had been out later and later each day until it was in sync with the light schedule, not being bullied by anything, out all day looking for food... absolutely everything going great. Then dead on the 11th day.

I am aware that they are tricky fish and I have read all the experiences people have had with them online but my question is why. What exactly is it that makes them so difficult?

Assuming that they would probably dart for the sand when people are trying to catch them in the wild, how exactly are these fish caught? I wonder if they are actually damaged internally to varying degrees before they even get shipped here?

I want to try again with this fish but I do worry that I'm just supporting something I shouldn't. I've also had a Red Tail Tamarin appear ok, eating voraciously for three days and then just roll over in front of my eyes.

So, what exactly is it that makes the fish so tricky, or are they actually not any more tricky than any other fish but there's something about how they are caught and/or transported that lessens the chances of success?

 

[evolved]

I am aware that they are tricky fish and I have read all the experiences people have had with them online but my question is why. What exactly is it that makes them so difficult?

It's not a really satisfying answer, but if we fully understood the answer to this question, they would not be difficult.

Sorry for your troubles. I've lost a few as well. I had one that did great, until I moved tanks, and I haven't been able to get another to "stick" quite yet.

 

[griff500]

It's not a really satisfying answer, but if we fully understood the answer to this question, they would not be difficult.

Sorry for your troubles. I've lost a few as well. I had one that did great, until I moved tanks, and I haven't been able to get another to "stick" quite yet.

No point asking the question then? I thought perhaps there might be some new understanding or insight that someone might have.

My underlying concern is that they might be catching them or bringing them to the surface in ways that meant they had little chance of survival, in which case I would not want to support that.

I thought that somebody might perhaps have some knowledge about this.

 

[evolved]

My underlying concern is that they might be catching them or bringing them to the surface in ways that meant they had little chance of survival, in which case I would not want to support that.

I highly doubt it. Kevin Kohen (LA director) worked with QM to shorten the supply chain on the species quite a few years ago. Therefore, I'd be hard pressed to believe there's collection issues. Diver's know the value of what they're collecting, and that of course has influence on how things are cared for.

 

[griff500]

I highly doubt it. Kevin Kohen (LA director) worked with QM to shorten the supply chain on the species quite a few years ago. Therefore, I'd be hard pressed to believe there's collection issues. Diver's know the value of what they're collecting, and that of course has influence on how things are cared for.

Knowing they are worth money simply means they will want to collect them. That doesn’t mean there’s any correlation to how they are cared for, unless they are only paid for live arrivals, which won’t be the case.

i’m not sure how shortening the supply chain relates to potential collection issues?

They must surely be hard to catch, so I wonder how they do it. I believe they come from about 30m depth and hide in the sand when scared?

It just seems a bit odd and I would love to understand it a bit more.

 

[evolved]

Knowing they are worth money simply means they will want to collect them. That doesn’t mean there’s any correlation to how they are cared for,

We'll have to disagree there.

i’m not sure how shortening the supply chain relates to potential collection issues?

Directly, it doesn't. But often what gets chalked off as "collection issues" is a result of diseases or other issues that happen along the way in a long supply chain. Basically, a short supply chain just lessons the chance they end up in a dirty/disease infested system, or else poorly cared for along the way.

They must surely be hard to catch, so I wonder how they do it. I believe they come from about 30m depth and hide in the sand when scared?

They're not particularly deep; only 10-30m. Fish like this are usually caught with a barrier net. The net is placed, and the fish are herded into the net. The really experienced divers don't bother with a barrier net, and just use a simple little "scoop" net with the the flick of a wrist. If you chase the fish into the sand, you might as well give up and move on to the next group. It's not worth the time/effort to try and dig, and then capture them, out of the sand.

 

[griff500]

My question largely relates to how they are caught. Do we know for a fact that they are not caught using cyanide, etc? If they are damaged before they are even shipped then there's little point supporting the import of them.

 

[pcon]

My question largely relates to how they are caught. Do we know for a fact that they are not caught using cyanide, etc? If they are damaged before they are even shipped then there's little point supporting the import of them.

We are talking about predominantly Australian collectors, ones with the resources to go out of their normal zone and collect fromthe less fished side of Australia. Probably one of the least likely fish to be collected with cyanide. Given the low numbers each year, short supply chain, limited number of collectors in the region, they have quite high traceability for any fish. if they were being caught with cyanide it would be a very dumb move as it is highly illegal and likely that they could be caught.

the tamarin wrasses are all very titchy, don’t adapt well to captivity, and are highly susceptible to stress and damage during transit. Cyanide seems like the boogeyman of keeping difficult fish. If I don’t want to take the heat for loosing a difficult fish after only a few weeks or months: oh it was caught with cyanide, I didn’t have a chance.

 

[griff500]

We are talking about predominantly Australian collectors, ones with the resources to go out of their normal zone and collect fromthe less fished side of Australia. Probably one of the least likely fish to be collected with cyanide. Given the low numbers each year, short supply chain, limited number of collectors in the region, they have quite high traceability for any fish. if they were being caught with cyanide it would be a very dumb move as it is highly illegal and likely that they could be caught.

the tamarin wrasses are all very titchy, don’t adapt well to captivity, and are highly susceptible to stress and damage during transit. Cyanide seems like the boogeyman of keeping difficult fish. If I don’t want to take the heat for loosing a difficult fish after only a few weeks or months: oh it was caught with cyanide, I didn’t have a chance.

You are making it sound like I am looking for excuses and the latter part of your response seems a bit rude. I am simply looking for reasons.

If you are saying that they are simply more delicate than what is it physiologically that makes them that way.

if you are correct about collection for them then that is interesting and should rule out that theory.

 

[pcon]

Nothing intended to be rude; simply stating, I have used the excuse before. I would hesitate before publicly, leveling malicious accusations, without foundation. You have accused collectors, of unsafe, damaging and illegal practices, without any evidence and minimal rational basis.

There is a lot of discussion already published on what makes Anampses wrasses difficult, I am far from an expert in labrids or any fish, and even the experts don't perfectly understand why some fish are more difficult than others. I will briefly summarize what is often brought up in regards to these fish. They are susceptible to physical damage. Why this is anatomically, you will need to research. There are a number of theories on why, all or some may be true. The fact that experts with experience with them, like Evolved and others, all agree that they are more likely to be damaged is enough information for me. They are susceptible to stress from transit, and tend to not take to new settings well. Again why anatomically I have no idea, I could hypothesize about an internal body clock, and piscine jet lag, or damage looking for sand to hide, while in the bag, but that would be puffery. They are difficult to get eating, and require frequent feeding. This comes from their natural feeding habits and metabolism. They are susceptible to being bullied which can lead to their demise. This is because they are prone to dive in the sand and not come out during feedings. Some come from cooler waters than we commonly keep our tanks, leading to problems when people try to put them in warmer tanks. We may never know exactly why some fish are more difficult than others. Why are some dwarf angels so much more difficult than the rest?

The natural ranges for femininus wrasses is known and publicised. Reputable vendors generally list collection origin, especially on expensive fish like the femininus. Looking on a source like fishbase.de we can see that the femininus is concentrated in eastern australia, so I was incorrect in that they are on the less collected side, I had their range flipped with A. lenardi. In addition to western australia they can be found off of Papua New Guinea and further east as far as Hanga Roa. Looking at QM, the wholesaler mentioned by Evolved, they are coming from Australia and Melanesia. The quality of fish coming from australia is unparalleled. And given the work by kevin kohen and QM, the value of these fish I would need evidence to suspect the ones coming from Melanesia are of lower quality.

 

[griff500]

Nothing intended to be rude; simply stating, I have used the excuse before. I would hesitate before publicly, leveling malicious accusations, without foundation. You have accused collectors, of unsafe, damaging and illegal practices, without any evidence and minimal rational basis.

How am I supposed to have a sensible discussion with you when you come out with rubbish like that. I have not accused anyone of anything.

Combative responses and straw man arguments are not particularly helpful.

 

[griff500]

Some come from cooler waters than we commonly keep our tanks, leading to problems when people try to put them in warmer tanks.

In amongst all that waffle, this could be of interest. I have seen it mentioned once online that Femininus prefer 'cooler' temperatures but this was not defined. I am still looking for information on the temperatures where the ones I have access to are collected.

The quality of fish coming from australia is unparalleled. And given the work by kevin kohen and QM, the value of these fish I would need evidence to suspect the ones coming from Melanesia are of lower quality.

Firstly, I am in the UK and so what QM do or do not do is probably of no relevance to me.

Secondly, after your previous rude and inaccurate comment regarding me apparently making accusations about collectors, you 'suspect the ones coming from Melanesia are of lower quality'? That sounds a bit like a 'malicious accusation without foundation'.

 

[Gareth elliott]

Will probably anecdotal but if could find members that have managed to get them to live till x(i have no idea their life expectancy) and asking how the cared for them might be your best bet.

As far as supply chain, ime it is usually the more delicate fish that come down with disease, refuse to eat, injured in a bag. Butterfly fish would be the most common ive seen with these issues.

Some fish species also have higher incidence of anxiety or depression once in a glass cage. Why some fish are not even kept at public aquariums.

 

[pcon]

How am I supposed to have a sensible discussion with you when you come out with rubbish like that. I have not accused anyone of anything.

Combative responses and straw man arguments are not particularly helpful.

I am all for a discussion of why these fish are difficult but you haven't provided any information to discuss why these are difficult. You have simply postulated that collectors are engaged in poor practices, like cyanide and digging fish up. Then responded "combatively" towards a well respected community member who provided excellent responses. You have no evidence or foundation for these points, and so I am very bluntly suggesting, you explore another avenue of inquiry, or bring in some information to support your points.

All of the things you have brought up are simply speculation without evidence. Bring some evidence and I will happily discuss the validity of accusing collectors of misconduct or poor practice, and the likelihood that that is what is responsible for the difficulty of femininus or other Anampses wrasses. With only your speculation as evidence, I am going to suggest that you look into husbandry and aspects of care that you can effect, instead of dubious claims about collectors.

The core question of your first post, "are they actually not any more tricky than any other fish but there's something about how they are caught and/or transported that lessens the chances of success?" has been resoundingly answered NO, These fish are difficult to care for independent of collection.

I don't think you will find many people here agreeing that because a fish is notoriously difficult we should not even attempt it. If you have some suggestion for how these fish could be better caught, handled and shipped, I would love to hear it. Loaded questions such as "Do we know for a fact that they are not caught using cyanide, etc?" and statements like "Knowing they are worth money simply means they will want to collect them. That doesn’t mean there’s any correlation to how they are cared for," without basis, can be detrimental to our hobby. So expect to be called out on it. There are enough people outside the hobby lobbying to shut down collection, we don't need people in it adding fuel to the fire.

'suspect the ones coming from Melanesia are of lower quality'? That sounds a bit like a 'malicious accusation without foundation'.

Read the beginning of the sentence. The full context reads "I would need evidence to suspect the ones coming from Melanesia are of lower quality" It's a bad form to quote people out of context to reverse their points. Especially when in the middle of a personal attack. Some might even call it "rude and inaccurate."

In amongst all that waffle, this could be of interest. I have seen it mentioned once online that Femininus prefer 'cooler' temperatures but this was not defined. I am still looking for information on the temperatures where the ones I have access to are collected.

The temperature ranges these fish are found in is readily available from scientific and hobby sources. As are resources for water temperatures. Couple quick google searches can tell you the annual temp range for most anywhere on earth, including on the water. Thanks NASA/NOAA! Combine that with the information you will gather looking at their natural range, boom all the info you need at your finger tips, just takes effort.

Firstly, I am in the UK and so what QM do or do not do is probably of no relevance to me.

What QM does is still indicative of where the supply is coming from. The UK still gets their fish from the same places in the world. QM gets fish from where they do because they are most abundant there, meaning it is probably coming from the same location, no matter where you live.

All for having a productive discussion. Let's talk about how to improve these fishes survivability with evidence based speculation, or actionable suggestions.

 

[griff500]

all the info you need at your finger tips, just takes effort.

A condescending reply in response to me having already said I was looking for that information. You really do have a bit of a crappy attitude and I wonder if you speak in the same manner with people face to face. I hope not, for their sake and for yours.

You keep trying to make out that I am making accusations when I am simply asking questions. I haven't provided information - you are quite right - that's because I am asking questions... Of course I haven't provided evidence for questions... good grief.

There was nothing combative about my response to Evolved and I was glad to have the input from someone with such experience with Wrasse. Your responses, comments and attitude are another matter entirely.

I am going to suggest that you look into husbandry and aspects of care that you can effect, instead of dubious claims about collectors.

That's incredibly rude and no 'claims' were made - questions were asked. Yet you continue to personalise and make false statements about what I have said.

I would prefer that you don't add any more to the thread. You are very clearly one of those people who likes an argument from behind your keyboard and I'd rather not get sucked any further into that nonsense.

 

[Gareth elliott]

group hug

 

[NanoDJS]

I think you hit the nail on the head with collection method, It has been happening forever , certain fish you just never gonna catch without the cyanide , they don't like to admit it but all the collectors do it for "those" fish then people wonder why did my fish die in a day ect, copperbands are notorious for this. They just wont admit they cannot catch one without "tools" then we all go nuts thinking we did something wrong.

 

[CavalierReef]

Griff 500 asked a very serious question. Simply: WHY are these fish so difficult to keep? He postulated a few potential reasons also as legitimate questions and seeking information. A lot of hot air followed and yet there is still no answer to his question. Possibly the answer is: no one knows or possibly just that no one responding to his question knows. Is the the science there that answers the question?

 

[Tplummer]

How am I supposed to have a sensible discussion with you when you come out with rubbish like that. I have not accused anyone of anything.

Combative responses and straw man arguments are not particularly helpful.

I think your question is reasonable. I dont see your question as any accusation. I think people like you just want to understand things so as to make the right moves. I get it.

 

[pcon]

I politely decline your invitation to leave, I don't particularly appreciate your tone but I restrain my commentary to your statements, instead of making commentary on your character. Instead of responding to the substance of my posts you harp on about tone. I freely and fully admit my tone has become increasingly rude and condescending in response to your posts. You may look through my post history, I work hard to provide quality informative content. Or just look left of my posts, and see other members of this forum consistently appreciate my content.

Your questioning and repeated return to collection issues came across as accusatory, just like my first reply came across as "rude." I am not going to go back and forth on this any further. I am willing to admit that it may have been presumptuous of me to assume your tone in asking them, And I am willing to admit that my first comment could have been interpreted as rude, I freely admit that I have been increasingly less nice in response. If you want to claim your "questions" were not accusatory towards collectors, and your responses not being combative then that is your right. This is not a subject of interest to this forum.

A condescending reply in response to me having already said I was looking for that information.

Tropical; 24°C - 28°C (Ref. 27115)
Elaborating on the process for how you might determine the temperature range for a specific fish in a specific local is a little more helpful than spoon feeding generic information. In any case that is unlikely to be the case with this specific species. because it's range is tropical, shallow, sympatric with many commonly kept aquarium fish, and reputable resources list normal reef fish temperature. That being said there could be more to it, would need evidence before speculating publicly on it. The lennardi wrasse seems to come from cooler waters as do other members of the family, which is why I mentioned temp in my prior post, and likely why the "mentioned once online" came up. Without a source for this "mentioned once online" it is hard to analyze the veracity of such a claim.

I am going to suggest that you look into husbandry and aspects of care that you can effect, instead of dubious claims about collectors.

That's incredibly rude and no 'claims' were made - questions were asked. Yet you continue to personalise and make false statements about what I have said.

Again cut out of context, if the proposed alternative is cease collection, when we know the issues in the care of these fish extends beyond just collection, we as hobbyists still need to work on our husbandry. No one has convinced me or shown evidence that the difficulty of these fish is only with issues in collection. While desirable to believe we are doing everything right, and the collectors are to blame, the evidence is simply not here. There are documented issues in collection, transport, and husbandry. I return to my original point of cyanide being the boogyman of difficult fish keeping. It is so easy to blame cyanide or collection and not look at husbandry, it is dangerous to the fish in our care to waste our time down that route. We as hobbyists only have control over what we can do with the fish under our care, we have little power to influence collectors, and in the case of the femininus many of those steps have already been taken. If we had specific methods or suggestions for improving collection and transport that would be valuable. We as hobbyists can intimately effect the conditions we provide for these animals so it makes sense to first master providing appropriate aquarium conditions. Unfortunately in the case of the Anampses wrasses the exact details of why they are difficult is unknown or so multifaceted as not to be simply articulated. What is well know and documented is that they have difficulty adapting to prepared foods, they need frequent feedings to support their low metabolism, they are vulnerable to bullying by more aggressive tank mates, they suffer from piscine jet lag like the leopard wrasses, and for unknown reasons many suddenly stop eating after months or years. The anatomical details of why these difficulties exist are largely unknown. There are techniques which exist for mitigating these difficulties, and those are worthy of focus over collection issues, as we have control over them.