Designer Corals

[Gaspipe]

Excuse the ignorance, but how do retailers get to label a zoa?

I mean if it's originally from the ocean (whether it was a month ago or 20 years ago) how does a retailer get to name something a WWC, JF or the other designer corals?

Was this retailer the first to bring this coral into the hobby?

Let's use Rasta as an example, do different retailers have that zoa labeled? Is there a WWC Rasta which is slightly different from a JF Rasta? (I only picked Rasta because I remember that I have seen them without a designer name in front of it.)

Thanks!

 

[James M]

The simply give it a name and sell it.

 

[PatrickMorris]

I combine space + monster theme and "nipples" in all mine, then i toss WWC or JF in front to add some panache

WWC Interstellar Tyrannosaurus Nipples
JF Jupiter's Mothman Nipples

etc

Easy $75 a polyp all day long

 

[ZipAdeeZoa]

Excuse the ignorance, but how do retailers get to label a zoa?

I mean if it's originally from the ocean (whether it was a month ago or 20 years ago) how does a retailer get to name something a WWC, JF or the other designer corals?

Was this retailer the first to bring this coral into the hobby?

Let's use Rasta as an example, do different retailers have that zoa labeled? Is there a WWC Rasta which is slightly different from a JF Rasta? (I only picked Rasta because I remember that I have seen them without a designer name in front of it.)

Thanks!

I've seen this done a few different ways and so far I've noticed that some places do seem to have slightly different strains but I know some places put their name in front of a "standardized zoa" like Rastas if it was propagated at their facility. It would be really nice if there was some sort of standard or system in place (Like L-numbers for plecos although that system is far from perfect. I think this would be difficult to accomplish at this point though since a) last time a checked zoo and paly taxonomy was a mess b) the same kind can look wildly different in different conditions c) Zoa's seem to mutate at a higher frequency than other corals (drastic colour or shape change in only a portion of colony d) the absurd names always give me good laugh, I just love that I can go into a fish store and say "I would like 10 Gorilla nipples please" and that makes sense to another human being;Hilarious

The simply give it a name and sell it.

Or this;Hilarious

 

[Gaspipe]

I ask because I was reading a thread about how Tyree Space Monster are so much better than WWC's version of this zoa.

It just seems easy to "forge" a "designer" coral. I mean I could buy a Zoa from a local guy that is the same species as WWC AOI for a fraction of the cost. I can then frag them later on and label them as WWC AOI. It's almost like a 3D Printer that can print more 3D Printers.

BTW WWC I'm only using your name because you guys are one of the top, nothing against you guys. I'm looking fwd to doing business with you in the future :)

 

[ZipAdeeZoa]

I certainly see what your saying, I’m very new to saltwater so my knowledge on this topic isn’t very extensive but as a snake guy (primarily) I see parallels between the zoanthid and the ball python industry (someone please correct me if I’m wrong)

Someone finds a crazy looking coral, they call up a handful of coral farms and give them a price that one of the coral farms ends up paying that price, raises it, propagates it and then if it does well for them they name it (they may or may not talk to other sellers first to make sure no one else has been doing the same thing with the same coral) and then they name it. If this is the case then it seems fairly likely that most of the larger coral seller may have an in depth understanding of where or when any of these strains popped up and who originally produced (released) them.

I’m used the word strain and I saw you used the word species but as I’m writing this I’m actually not sure if anyone knows if the color variations are actually all separate species, subspecies, extensive mutations and or polymorphism of a handful of species etc...

Sometimes I forget how little we actually know about corals as a whole;Hilarious

 

[littlebigreef]

When rastas first came available I remember getting mine as a Tyree labeled lineage. However, a rasta is pretty much a rasta. Now a days I occasionally see people branding rastas as their own ie... "Aquatic Wonder Rasta" (made up). Its laughable. ****. A rasta is a rasta and that's why you generally don't see them with branding.

However, you do see some more unique zoa strains coming from specific vendors. The whole question of 'lineage' and 'strain' is a tough one to sort out especially because naming and determining 'what is' is based entirely on observable traits which are prone to changing under different light and water parameters. We're seeing this now with the grand master krak which is only superficially different from an adonis zoa. Yet, it carries a substantially larger price tag (for the time being). That larger price tag has lead to no small debate as a number of 'impostors' have flooded the market. The difference between the impostors and GMK? Lineage back to Rudy. If we were really going to sort this out we'd need to sequence the genome of each zoa strain and then create a database a la the American Kennel Club (for dogs). Nobody is doing that for zoas. That is, I hope, nobody is doing that lol.

Finally, you have a specific vendor that loves to re-brand everything as their own and charge 5 times the going rate. That's his prerogative. Apparently people eat that stuff up.

What I'd say is don't buy into the hype and be smart with your decision making if you choose to collect zoas. Do superficial differences warrant bigger prices tags? No. Is one strain better because is came from WWC instead of JF? Rarely if ever. Is something more valuable just because its new? Initially yes, but in the long run this is a losing game. There are a handful of zoas that can rightfully command a high price tag for a sustained period of time and its because 1) they're hard to keep, 2) they don't frag well or 3) they don't ship/transfer well.

 

[Gaspipe]

We're seeing this now with the grand master krak which is only superficially different from an adonis zoa

I actually saw that GMK while googling some of the zoas on here. Really is nuts

create a database a la the American Kennel Club (for dogs)

I thought the same thing. People are going to have to pay a registration fee and get a certificate. To prove that this frag is a direct descendant of the original.

There are a handful of zoas that can rightfully command a high price tag for a sustained period of time and its because 1) they're hard to keep, 2) they don't frag well or 3) they don't ship/transfer well.

This actually makes the most sense especially the frag and shipping part.

Also wish to thank everyone for taking time out and explaining this.

 

[Gaspipe]

My "plan" was/is to try and populate your tank with corals that you really like and are hopefully in demand. I know this isn't an original idea. Buy some nice corals, frag and swap/sell to offset your ongoing costs.

So people with experience buying higher cost Zoas: Have you had success buying a frag that is $150 pp and after some time sell them local for $50 pp? Or, knowing my luck by the time I am able to frag (cultivate the right term?) the fad has passed lol and there is no longer the demand for this frag.

 

[EMeyer]

Hundreds of Zoas and palys are collected from the ocean and imported every week. 100% of them look like something someone has attached a name to. So these all get labelled and sold using that name. As a result, there are tens to hundreds of different types within in each name, and no one has any actual data on them.

"Rasta" or "eagle eye" or "ultimate space chaos nipples" have exactly as much meaning as "black dog". Its a made up name describing the animal.

 

[littlebigreef]

My "plan" was/is to try and populate your tank with corals that you really like and are hopefully in demand. I know this isn't an original idea. Buy some nice corals, frag and swap/sell to offset your ongoing costs.

So people with experience buying higher cost Zoas: Have you had success buying a frag that is $150 pp and after some time sell them local for $50 pp? Or, knowing my luck by the time I am able to frag (cultivate the right term?) the fad has passed lol and there is no longer the demand for this frag.

I'll say what I say to everyone who asks this question. Its not as fun as it looks and its far more difficult than it sounds. Yes, it can be done. But, you should operate with the expectation that you're not going to get anything back. Stuff happens, sometimes coral dies. However, there will always be a market for zoas, both high end and regular. There'll also always be people willing to trade- often times equally valuable stuff.

 

[Gaspipe]

Its not as fun as it looks and its far more difficult than it sounds.

I'll take your word for it, and once it stops becoming fun/rewarding what's the sense... TY again.

 

[User1]

I think what you are looking for is best described by the pretentious Latin name of Caveat Emptor. Which if spelled properly, and I always hold the right to be incorrect, means let the buyer beware. It is very true in this hobby with various shops propagating coral frags with a known taxonomy, anatomy, ecology, who then slap a designer label and resell it for an order of magnitude or two more than what it is really worth.

Capitalism at its best but really up to the hobbyist with what they are willing to pay for something that has a different coral morph. I've seen this in my own tank whereas I have 11 different rose bubble tip anemones all from the same source and the clones, all of them, look different in one way or another. I mean I almost made a school house rock rap song here by throwing down taxonomy, anatomy, and ecology but you get the point.

Re sellers, chop shops, vendors are adding a name to a known scientific classification - it doesn't change it. A Staghorn is still a Staghorn at the end of the day and is in the Acropora scientific name or species and the rest are made up common names. Although really not common because I think common would be something else that isn't made up.

So - let the buyer beware.

Edit: With regards to my anemone comment. Those 11 are all from my original single purchase over the course of 8 years. Original had no cream swirls. I have several now that have cream colors on the main body others with it only on the bulb tips, and the rest look various shades of rose, red, etc. That is all I mean by them looking different but all clones from the original I bough a while ago.