Diatoms to eliminate or control nuisance algaes

[sixty_reefer]

Could we utilise the ability of controlling diatoms with silica to outcompete green nuisance algae?

this is a question that has been on my mind for some time, it’s my understanding that most unwanted algae and bacteria thrive under occasions were organic nutrients become more available in reef aquaria, it’s also my understanding that diatoms are a type of phytoplankton that are often limited in growth by silica, it’s fairly uncommon to see algae and diatoms blooming together during the initial months of a new system, often we only observe the first signs of algae once the diatom bloom is over. Would this be something that is worth following up with a test? Setting up a system and once the initial diatom bloom is over try and find a maintenance dose to keep the organic nutrients more manageable during that first year that often system don’t have enough organisms to manage organic nutrient and by effect become more exposed to all different types of unwanted nuisances.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I don’t think either green hair algae or diatoms are very effective at taking up organics, but diatoms may well be effective at competing for space on rocks and glass.

Diatoms could reproducibly outcompete green algae on my glass every time I dosed silicate.

 

[sixty_reefer]

I don’t think either green hair algae or diatoms are very effective at taking up organics, but diatoms may well be effective at competing for space on rocks and glass.

I read that dissolved organic nutrients were utilised by several species of phytoplankton more in particular nitrogen, dissolved organic phosphates, and potassium as macro nutrient with the exception of silica for diatoms mainly and minerals.
2 years ago I’ve dosed milk straight into my tank as you know milk is very high In nitrogen, the results from milk dosing was a large bloom of GHA.
Recently I’ve tried nitrogen from ati and a blend of amino acids that also aided the growth of GHA in my system and of late I have been able to have a ongoing standard phytoplankton culture with just dissolved organic nutrients. My past mistakes and literature I read online incline that most of the nuisance algaes can utilise nitrogen during photosynthesis.
I am now wondering if in the same way that diatoms can eradicate dinoflagellates in a nutrient competition the same could be achieved with more nuisance without having to produce a visible bloom.

Diatoms could reproducibly outcompete green algae on my glass every time I dosed silicate.

I remember seeing the pictures, I now wonder if the green micro algae was eradicated by the diatoms in a nutrient competition pathway. Where a new specie tool over the previous specie by being more efficient at assimilating the available DON

 

[Dan_P]

Could we utilise the ability of controlling diatoms with silica to outcompete green nuisance algae?

this is a question that has been on my mind for some time, it’s my understanding that most unwanted algae and bacteria thrive under occasions were organic nutrients become more available in reef aquaria, it’s also my understanding that diatoms are a type of phytoplankton that are often limited in growth by silica, it’s fairly uncommon to see algae and diatoms blooming together during the initial months of a new system, often we only observe the first signs of algae once the diatom bloom is over. Would this be something that is worth following up with a test? Setting up a system and once the initial diatom bloom is over try and find a maintenance dose to keep the organic nutrients more manageable during that first year that often system don’t have enough organisms to manage organic nutrient and by effect become more exposed to all different types of unwanted nuisances.

In nature, diatoms are typically the first algae to colonize new surfaces. Later other species take over the surface. The succession in the aquarium, first diatoms then green algae, might be following the same pattern. The two types of organism probably live together but dominate the surface community at different stages of development.

Controlling organic nutrients by any means will be a difficult goal to achieve if you cannot measure their concentration.

 

[sixty_reefer]

In nature, diatoms are typically the first algae to colonize new surfaces. Later other species take over the surface. The succession in the aquarium, first diatoms then green algae, might be following the same pattern. The two types of organism probably live together but dominate the surface community at different stages of development.

in enclosed systems diatoms often are limited by silica, once exhausted the bloom will die off

Controlling organic nutrients by any means will be a difficult goal to achieve if you cannot measure their concentration.

I’m finding the same, there isn’t many beneficial organisms that can assimilate DON and I’m starting to think diatoms could be a solution to it as they can be easily controlled in numbers, we do have N-Doc testing and visual indication that a system may not being able to deal with DON.
Green or brown algae on the glass and rapid growth of a nuisance algae could be a good visual indication as a starter that there is a excess being produced

 

[Dan_P]

in enclosed systems diatoms often are limited by silica, once exhausted the bloom will die off

That is the hobby narrative and it is rational, but no one has actually demonstrated that silica depletion causes the end of the first diatom bloom in a new aquarium. It is certainly a falsifiable hypothesis.

I’m finding the same, there isn’t many beneficial organisms that can assimilate DON

What makes you say this? I have driven the DON in my system to an undetectable level according to the Triton N-DOC test.

 

[sixty_reefer]

That is the hobby narrative and it is rational, but no one has actually demonstrated that silica depletion causes the end of the first diatom bloom in a new aquarium. It is certainly a falsifiable hypothesis.

What’s your view on the end of the bloom?

What makes you say this? I have driven the DON in my system to an undetectable level according to the Triton N-DOC test.

Was your system older than 1 year at the time you done the N-Doc?
did you stop feeding the system?
once a system matures managing DON becomes more easier it’s the first year that I find that there isn’t many methods available to keep it under control

 

[Dan_P]

What’s your view on the end of the bloom?

Don’t have an alternative yet. It could simplybe quorum sensing and dispersion.

Was your system older than 1 year wend you done the N-Doc?
once a system matures managing DON becomes more easier it’s the first year that I find that there isn’t many methods available to keep it under control

Yes older.

Unless DON is being measured I am not sure how we would know there is a problem.

 

[sixty_reefer]

Unless DON is being measured I am not sure how we would know there is a problem.

there is some indications as I mentioned before, other indication will be Cyanobacteria and dinoflagellates although those indications will already be to late, excess DON is the reason both bloom under low inorganic nutrient and high inorganic nutrients. Don is the main source of energy for both species hence the difficulty of eradication in some situations.

 

[ryshark]

Could be unrelated, but I've been daily dosing Silicates at a Low Dose and I have no algae (or diatom) issues even with higher nutrients. I also have a really good CUC so that could be part of it too.

 

[sixty_reefer]

Could be unrelated, but I've been daily dosing Silicates at a Low Dose and I have no algae (or diatom) issues even with higher nutrients. I also have a really good CUC so that could be part of it too.

I believe that is spot on the subject. Do you know your dose in ppm? And do you get film algae growing on the glass?

 

[ryshark]

I believe that is spot on the subject. Do you know your dose in ppm? And do you get film algae growing on the glass?

I'm dosing 4-5 drops of SpongExcel daily, so whatever PPM that works out to be in about 100-gallons. WAAAAAY less ppm than when I was dosing waterglass to out-compete dinos.

My PO4 today is .18 and NO3 around 13-14. A few weeks ago my PO4 was .37 and I decided to slowly bring it down. Even at 0.37 I wasn't getting algae issue and my glass doesn't get dirty too quickly. I start seeing a dusting on the glass after a few days. I just cleaned the glass yesterday, but I'll let it go a little longer this time and see if its a film algae or not.

 

[Dan_P]

there is some indications as I mentioned before, other indication will be Cyanobacteria and dinoflagellates although those indications will already be to late, excess DON is the reason both bloom under low inorganic nutrient and high inorganic nutrients. Don is the main source of energy for both species hence the difficulty of eradication in some situations.

Even so, this evidence is probably too thin to claim there is a problem. We really need measurements.

As for DON being the main source of energy for these organism, I would say light is more likely the main source of energy for photosynthetic organisms and they can utilize organic compounds to supplement energy requirements.

 

[sixty_reefer]

As for DON being the main source of energy for these organism, I would say light is more likely the main source of energy for photosynthetic organisms and they can utilize organic compounds to supplement energy requirements.

There’s no organisms in our planet that can create energy from light alone. They all require light and macro, micro nutrients and minerals often the macro nutrients are the main limiting factor in phytoplankton species we have nitrogen, phosphorus, potassium and silica as the main macro nutrients.

 

[Dan_P]

There’s no organisms in our planet that can create energy from light alone. They all require light and macro, micro nutrients and minerals often the macro nutrients are the main limiting factor in phytoplankton species we have nitrogen, phosphorus, potassium and silica as the main macro nutrients.

I think that you might be conflating concepts. Micro and macro nutrients are the building blocks of biomass and molecules like enzymes. Photosynthetic organisms use light to generate chemical energy which is stored in molecules like ATP. The molecules made from nutrients are part of the apparatus that harvests energy from light, not the source of energy that powers photosynthetic organisms.

 

[sixty_reefer]

I think that you might be conflating concepts. Micro and macro nutrients are the building blocks of biomass and molecules like enzymes. Photosynthetic organisms use light to generate chemical energy which is stored in molecules like ATP. The molecules made from nutrients are part of the apparatus that harvests energy from light, not the source of energy that powers photosynthetic organisms.

Yes you are correct I meant to say mass not energy, nutrients are also required to creat ATP were the energy can be stored and essential to make DNA and RNA

 

[Miami Reef]

In my experience, dosing sodium silicate encouraged diatoms to outcompete green algae and coralline too.

I clearly saw diatoms grow over the coralline.

 

[sixty_reefer]

I'm dosing 4-5 drops of SpongExcel daily, so whatever PPM that works out to be in about 100-gallons. WAAAAAY less ppm than when I was dosing waterglass to out-compete dinos.

My PO4 today is .18 and NO3 around 13-14. A few weeks ago my PO4 was .37 and I decided to slowly bring it down. Even at 0.37 I wasn't getting algae issue and my glass doesn't get dirty too quickly. I start seeing a dusting on the glass after a few days. I just cleaned the glass yesterday, but I'll let it go a little longer this time and see if its a film algae or not.

Thank you, that’s all great stuff

 

[sixty_reefer]

In my experience, dosing sodium silicate encouraged diatoms to outcompete green algae and coralline too.

I clearly saw diatoms grow over the coralline.

I saw your earlier post and you made a really good observation, I’ve introduced a small maintenance dose yesterday also to my system. I don’t have much GHA to make a good observation

 

[djf91]

We had talked on a different thread about my tank and how my GHA, cyano, and possibly Dino’s have returned to my system after beating them 3 months ago. Last night I took a large pump and blew out all of my rockwork, specifically all of the holes in the porous live rock, and the amount of detritus that came blasting out was amazing. I’ve done this several times in the past with similar results. The GHA typically grows back where this detritus accumulates. Would this be an example of DON? I have substantial flow but I can only do so much in a 500 gal display with 500 pounds of live rock.