Did I unlock all the phosphate from 100#s of live rock?

[MERKEY]

I think about it like this. If I add drops of blue dye to my reef everyday, at some point my water will be blue. When I try to remove the blue dye from the water, the rocks will have absorbed that blue dye and will continue to leach it back into the water. It may take a while til my reef is clear again.
Cheers! Mark

Yes I understand that and thank you for the easy to follow explanation.

I felt like randy was explaining to me what this thread is helping with and suggesting the same thing did not happen in my case.

I was trying to figure out why? What about my situation was different?

 

[MERKEY]

I explained my situation and randy suggested my rocks did not infact release phos.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

So are the rocks actually releasing or have they just stopped obsorbing phos? How do you track that in a tank with fish and feeding habits that don't change?

Aragonite in a bucket by its self it is easy to see when this happens and track it.

Sorry for my silly question but....

In a very recent thread I explained this happening in our 1 year old tank. We started noticing the raise in phos around the 1 year mark with no adjustment to feeding.

After reading this thread and getting help from members here. We came to the conclusion our rocks/or something was/were releasing bound up phos.

Then recently this past few days Randy suggested that I don't know when the rocks have stopped absorbing phosphate and it is actually not the rocks releasing phosphate but actually the free floating phos in the water.

So I'm just a bit confused on Randy's suggestion to me in my situation and this thread....

Were my rocks not releasing bound phos somewhere in my tank like this thread suggests?

He stats phos just doesn't release from the rocks unless you are actively trying to drive down the phos in the water. Which we did not do in our case and the phos was still coming from somewhere and again no feeding changes or husbandry differences.

But as you can see in the attachments randy does not agree that our rocks had any phos bound to them.

Not trying to confuse or start a debate, I was confused on the information coming my way.

We have the phos stable now so this is not a HELP moment.... I'm just trying understand this phos thing a bit more.

Rocks will generally not release phosphate unless you are trying to maintain a lower level of phosphate in the water than the levels that drove the phosphate on in the first place.

That said, aragonite will slowly dissolve in sand and rock locations where the pH may be low due to degradation of organics, and that dissolution may release some or all of the phosphate bound into those parts that actually dissolve.

In practical terms, I'm not sure the distinction matters to the aquarist's actions except from a curiosity standpoint. Foods add a lot of phosphate every day (like 0.05 to 0.1 ppm) and if it is rising, you can reduce that by exporting more or feeding less.

 

[excell007]

I depends entirely on the available surface area, but can be a lot!

JDA did an experiment where he put 57.4 total ppm of phosphate into 5 gallons of seawater with 1 pound of Florida aragonite.

The concentration dropped all the way to 0.16 ppm.

Phosphate Absorption Rates in Aragonite

The more you add, the more will bind!

www.reef2reef.com

Thanks Randy, No wonder it's taking more than a couple of months to really make a dent on my phosphate numbers. Having more than 100# of rocks plus sand on a 15YO tank, I have accepted that this battle can take a while.

 

[excell007]

I explained my situation and randy suggested my rocks did not infact release phos.

yup, you are correct. rocks will not release phosphate unless the phosphate in the water becomes lower than the rocks. if your phosphate is increasing it is coming from somewhere else. and if your phosphate in the water is increasing so does the phosphate on the rocks, because it will start absorbing when the level on the water is higher.

 

[MERKEY]

yup, you are correct. rocks will not release phosphate unless the phosphate in the water becomes lower than the rocks. if your phosphate is increasing it is coming from somewhere else. and if your phosphate in the water is increasing so does the phosphate on the rocks, because it will start absorbing when the level on the water is higher.

Yup got what he was saying....

And I think my question was lost in translation.

I guess the point im trying to get to is where and how can you track that moment. To actually know when the rocks stop obsorbing and start releasing.

In our case we did not see a rise in phos for almost that full 1st year. So in theory thats when they stopped obsorbing phos. Then we started to drive it down then they started to release.

 

[excell007]

Yup got what he was saying....

And I think my question was lost in translation.

I guess the point im trying to get to is where and how can you track that moment. To actually know when the rocks stop obsorbing and start releasing.

In our case we did not see a rise in phos for almost that full 1st year. So in theory thats when they stopped obsorbing phos. Then we started to drive it down then they started to release.

I am not sure it can be track, but don't quote me on this.The levels in our tanks contantly changes, so I am assumming the rocks and sand are also absorbing and releasing constantly to balance the level between water and rocks.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Yup got what he was saying....

And I think my question was lost in translation.

I guess the point im trying to get to is where and how can you track that moment. To actually know when the rocks stop obsorbing and start releasing.

In our case we did not see a rise in phos for almost that full 1st year. So in theory thats when they stopped obsorbing phos. Then we started to drive it down then they started to release.

If this is what happened (I'm not convinced your situation relates to rock at all, but it might), it happens any time you try to drive down phosphate lower than it is, whether that is 3 weeks after setting up the tank, or 8 years.

 

[MERKEY]

If this is what happened (I'm not convinced your situation relates to rock at all, but it might), it happens any time you try to drive down phosphate lower than it is, whether that is 3 weeks after setting up the tank, or 8 years.

Any suggestion to what would my situation have been related to?

Obviously not the exact cause but if not the rocks and sand...food was kept the same.

Just a mystery where all the extra phos was coming from if it didn't release once I started lowering phos in my water wouldn't it be from my rocks and sand in my situation.

And honestly the tank with the issues was moved into a bigger tank but its just interesting to learn what could have been the issue if not the rocks and sand.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Any suggestion to what would my situation have been related to?

Obviously not the exact cause but if not the rocks and sand...food was kept the same.

Just a mystery where all the extra phos was coming from if it didn't release once I started lowering phos in my water would it be from my rocks and sand in my situation.

And honestly the tank with the issues was moved into a bigger tank but its just interesting to learn what could have been the issue if not the rocks and sand.

Just more addition than consumption/export.

Foods add a massive amount daily. Folks don't see it because it gets consumed, but if the food rose by 10% or consumption dropped by 10%, that could rapidly escalate to a big number.

 

[excell007]

@Randy Holmes-Farley , one question, since we are dosing to remove a significan amount of phophate: Will the extra chloride introduced by the LC have a detrimental effect on the tank? If so, how do we remove it, just water water change?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

@Randy Holmes-Farley , one question, since we are dosing to remove a significan amount of phophate: Will the extra chloride introduced by the LC have a detrimental effect on the tank? If so, how do we remove it, just water water change?

No. There is 19,000 ppm of chloride in seawater. It is by far the most abundant ion in seawater

.If you add enough lanthanum to remove 1 ppm of phosphate, that is only about 1 ppm of chloride added.

 

[excell007]

No. There is 19,000 ppm of chloride in seawater. It is by far the most abundant ion in seawater

.If you add enough lanthanum to remove 1 ppm of phosphate, that is only about 1 ppm of chloride added.

Good to know. Thanks very much.

 

[Daddy-o]

Had time to do a phosphate test today. Only went up slightly from .10 to .11-.12 Started the dripper with 5ml of Phosphat-E. According to my math this is enough to pull .1 out of my system.
Cheers! Mark

 

[excell007]

Had time to do a phosphate test today. Only went up slightly from .10 to .11-.12 Started the dripper with 5ml of Phosphat-E. According to my math this is enough to pull .1 out of my system.
Cheers! Mark

You're really close to maintaining it below .10. it will be at least 2 weeks for me to be stable at .10. But I know it is working, because the same amout of phosphat-e have reduced more.

 

[Daddy-o]

You're really close to maintaining it below .10. it will be at least 2 weeks for me to be stable at .10. But I know it is working, because the same amout of phosphat-e have reduced more.

I have noticed some red algae or something starting to grow in small patches. Not sure if it is related to the LC? I have 600 snails coming this week so for now, no stress!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I have noticed some red algae or something starting to grow in small patches. Not sure if it is related to the LC? I have 600 snails coming this week so for now, no stress!

Lanthanum will not boost algae.

 

[Thales]

Just more addition than consumption/export.

Foods add a massive amount daily. Folks don't see it because it gets consumed, but if the food rose by 10% or consumption dropped by 10%, that could rapidly escalate to a big number.

This! I have been dosing lanthanum chloride into my skimmer for almost 2 years now into my Bill Wann skimmer. Started at 10ml diluted into 1000ml DI dosed at 30ml a day (though that has changed over time, I have played with concentrations and dosages over time). Phosphate started at 1.6 and has been as low as .2 but is now at .72. I feed a lot, and have been feeding more lately to keep baby coral happy. The road to low phosphate via lanthanum dosing is long and likely forever if you feed a lot. I may or may not up my dosing of lanthanum after the spawning I am waiting for this month happens or doesn't happen.
I am not really worried about high phosphate and started dosing lanthanum in the skimmer at lower amounts because it was easy and Craig Bingman was interested if it would work - I know me, I am not going to deal with clogged filters (I have no mechanical filtration for that reason). It seems to have brought the general level down, and as I say, I may, just for fun, try to get it lower.
YMMV

 

[piranhaman00]

I just dosed into a filter sock but it must have torn or something as my tank started clouding! My tangs are breathing heavy it seems, kinda nervous!

Stopped dosing of course and wet skimming.

People dose this right into their Tanks though right?

 

[Daddy-o]

I just dosed into a filter sock but it must have torn or something as my tank started clouding! My tangs are breathing heavy it seems, kinda nervous!

Stopped dosing of course and wet skimming.

People dose this right into their Tanks though right?

Oh NOOOOOO!!!! Lots of surface agitation? how much was your dose supposed to lower Phos.? and yes, I dose right into my reef but no cloudiness