Differences between Nano tanks and larger tanks

[Surfandturf]

So I was at an lfs last night and was pulled into a conversation between the owner and a prospective customer. Basically, the owner wanted this customer to buy and start a nano reef. During the conversation the owner said that this guy could throw saltwater, live rock, and live sand in the tank and drop a fish in immediately. I had to tell the guy that the information was wrong and that he needed to ensure that his tank "cycled". The owner then proceeded to say that live sand would always be cleaned by his cleanup crew so he would rarely have to do water changes in his nano. I told him that this was false as well. I know a lot of people with larger tanks, and they have created quite the self-sustaining system, but that is very hard to do in a 10g with 10lbs of live rock and 4 lbs of sand. I explained that with all of that added to the tank you are looking at more like 7 gallons of water. Maybe. I told him that if he wanted live sand, he could probably do it, but that it would be a good idea to vacuum it in 3rds or stir it a little.The owner went to the back and left the guy with me and I told him to do some research and that despite what he was told, yes he does need to wait for a cycle.
After the guy left the owner said that there were a lot of things wrong with what I said, I laughed and asked what were those things? He told me that he could just throw stability in the tank and boom he has a reef tank. He also said that you can NEVER vacuum sand. He then admitted that he has never had a nano tank, ever. I told him that he was wrong about almost everything he told the guy. Telling someone that they can have a thriving nano reef and do monthly maintenance is totally of base. I also informed him that a nano is much more work and constant upkeep. He said that he has been "doing this a heck of a lot longer than 6 years". This is not a place I buy from, it is a newer place. My normal spot would never give advice like a nano is great for beginners because there is so little maintenance.

 

[Reefing Madness]

Well, the shop owner was close to being right, imo.
If the newby were to buy totally cured live rock, and not let any portion of it die off during transit, then yes, he could in reality have a reef tank in a matter of hours. Once the tank has settled, and the water has come to temperature, your all set, the rock is already teaming with bacteria, more than enough to support one fish in the first stages of set up.
Also, I don't advise vacuuming your sand off, to much life in there to grab hold of, if you have sufficient flow in the tank, and run a skimmer to grab to crap, (or a filter) then no, I'd not advise stirring up the sand bed or vacuuming it up.
Yes, I've run a nano tank in my time, before moving up the the large tank.

 

[Surfandturf]

Well, the shop owner was close to being right, imo.
If the newby were to buy totally cured live rock, and not let any portion of it die off during transit, then yes, he could in reality have a reef tank in a matter of hours. Once the tank has settled, and the water has come to temperature, your all set, the rock is already teaming with bacteria, more than enough to support one fish in the first stages of set up.
Also, I don't advise vacuuming your sand off, to much life in there to grab hold of, if you have sufficient flow in the tank, and run a skimmer to grab to crap, (or a filter) then no, I'd not advise stirring up the sand bed or vacuuming it up.
Yes, I've run a nano tank in my time, before moving up the the large tank.

What you fail to realize is that a deep sand bed in a NANO is a poison trap! If you want one for aesthetics, that is fine, but its not like you can throw a sand sifting star, a horseshoe crab, and a bunch of live rock in a tiny tank like that. You will have dead spots. Trust me, I have seen this first hand. You think that these critters will be able to move in the sand with the addition of 10lbs of live rock? Ludicrous man. The surface area of the sand would be so small that there would be nothing for these critters to sift.

 

[Reeferdood]

What you fail to realize is that a deep sand bed in a NANO is a poison trap! If you want one for aesthetics, that is fine, but its not like you can throw a sand sifting star, a horseshoe crab, and a bunch of live rock in a tiny tank like that. You will have dead spots. Trust me, I have seen this first hand. You think that these critters will be able to move in the sand with the addition of 10lbs of live rock? Ludicrous man. The surface area of the sand would be so small that there would be nothing for these critters to sift.

Sorry bro but I am going to have to agree with RM on this one...
Personally, I would stay away from Nanos all together unless I felt like tinkering daily....

 

[Surfandturf]

Sorry bro but I am going to have to agree with RM on this one...
Personally, I would stay away from Nanos all together unless I felt like tinkering daily....

"Tinkering daily" that is pretty much what I told the guy. The owner said maybe a water change once every month or two. Did you even read my initial post? A nano takes a lot more overwatch and maintenance than a large tank. So what are you agreeing with? Putting a horse shoe crab and a sand sifting star in a tiny surface area of sand? What, are they just going to sit in one area of a 10 gallon with a bunch of live rock and spin in tiny circles? Sorry but I don't think that reducing the volume of water in a nano to add a deep sand bed makes too much sense. If all you needed was sand and rock, why have the water at all? And no, I am not for cycling a tank at the expense of a fish.

 

[hart24601]

Sand at all in a nano is asking for trouble I think. Ime I had great results in Nanos with no sand and power heads blowing at the bottom and rock that allows circulation between them (not stacked). When I 1st tried Nanos I had sand and while it was ok for a while corals grew much I couldnt physically clean the sand and after 8 mo or so had mystery problems. Finally found it was because the sand was GROSS. Had clean up crew, but even they have a hard time in the physical tight space of Nanos.

 

[Surfandturf]

Sand at all in a nano is asking for trouble I think. Ime I had great results in Nanos with no sand and power heads blowing at the bottom and rock that allows circulation between them (not stacked). When I 1st tried Nanos I had sand and while it was ok for a while corals grew much I couldnt physically clean the sand and after 8 mo or so had mystery problems. Finally found it was because the sand was GROSS. Had clean up crew, but even they have a hard time in the physical tight space of Nanos.

Yep! Exactly why I went bare bottom with this build.

 

[Mike_J]

This is an interesting scenario. I suppose in theory it is possible to have a nano tank up and running immediately with the perfect conditions, as suggested above and by the LFS. However, as experienced reefers, I'm not so sure anyone would really recommend this, especially to someone just entering the hobby. At least I would not. Your advice of doing more research and allowing a cycle was solid advice, in my opinion. Just my .02 cents worth. Happy reefing! :)


(Previous nano tank owner ;))

 

[tomtom2245]

How is putting cured and ready live rock and new sand in a nano different from moving or upgrading a tank? While I wouldn't advise on starting a tank that way, I could see how the LFS owner might say that. As far as maintenance and "constant tinkering" for a nano, as a current nano owner of a 6.2 gal tank, all I do on this tank is a ~1gal water change every 2-3 weeks, that is it! And it is a healthy, thriving tank with lots of LPS, maxi minis, and a clam.

 

[tomtom2245]

Oh, and I run with a sand bed in all of my tanks. Aesthetically I think it is more pleasing and provides space for more bacteria to grow and other critters to live.

 

[Tori]

Just my opinion, I would say the owner wasn't grossly miss-informing the customer the way it sounds. I'm still learning and researching daily but it seems like there are many different ways to run a reef tank that can work well. It seems like it's all about balance and finding a way that works for you. I have a nano with sand and I don't really have to tinker daily, other than Alkalinity test. I added marine pure spheres, sachem matrix and an ATS to deal with nutrients, when they skyrocketed to 80 :eek: and I have to overfeed to keep nitrates above zero. Phosphate have been steady at .02. The tank has currently been running for 15 months and it's been pretty low maintenance for the last 4. Having said that I think you offered really great advice by telling the customer to do some research first so they can decide for themselves.

 

[Surfandturf]

How is putting cured and ready live rock and new sand in a nano different from moving or upgrading a tank? While I wouldn't advise on starting a tank that way, I could see how the LFS owner might say that. As far as maintenance and "constant tinkering" for a nano, as a current nano owner of a 6.2 gal tank, all I do on this tank is a ~1gal water change every 2-3 weeks, that is it! And it is a healthy, thriving tank with lots of LPS, maxi minis, and a clam.

You failed to mention that you are running a skimmer as well... I don't run a skimmer and I do water changes twice per week of 10%. I also do not dose anything. I have a very large bioload. This owner was trying to make a sale plain and simple. He even admitted to never running a nano. As far as transferring tanks, ok. But how much die off will this person have? What will the ammonia be like?

 

[hart24601]

I do want to add that I don't think they require tinkering daily. The ones I kept were not too bad. I run kalk in the ato and have a BM doser for CA and alk. For WC I just made up a 5g bucket cover it and once a week take a cut off milk jug scoop out .5-.75gallon and replace with mixed water form 5g bucket. That's good for 10% (ish depending on nano size) and the bucket lasts a month and a half. Easy. Can do twice a week if you want and still only takes about 2min.

Until I started keeping sps in there that's all that was needed (with kalk in ato) for work and LPs grew like crazy. No skimmer here but did have small fuge with cheato.

If someone is dead set on sand it can clearly be done, but there are a ton of good looking options, rock base, starboard, zoa plugs glued... All sorts of things to break up the flat plane and I still highly recommend no sand bed in nano. Just don't mix well that I have found. But hey, many ways to have success in this hobby.

I do think it never hurts to tell people to do more research!

 

[tomtom2245]

I run a skimmer on my 20gal and 26gal tanks and dose on my 20gal, I do none of these on my 6.2gal tank. Those choices were livestock dependent. The 20 is a pretty heavy mixed Reef with lots of SPS that require the dosing and I feed a lot, hence the skimmer. The 26gal is a frogfish tank and they are notoriously messy, hence the skimmer there as well. The 6.2 I'm keeping pretty simple and the only equipment on it is the light, heater, ATO, and pump.

I think in this scenario both parties have valid points. Could it have been handled better, probably. But this is just my opinion.

 

[Surfandturf]

I run a skimmer on my 20gal and 26gal tanks and dose on my 20gal, I do none of these on my 6.2gal tank. Those choices were livestock dependent. The 20 is a pretty heavy mixed Reef with lots of SPS that require the dosing and I feed a lot, hence the skimmer. The 26gal is a frogfish tank and they are notoriously messy, hence the skimmer there as well. The 6.2 I'm keeping pretty simple and the only equipment on it is the light, heater, ATO, and pump.

I think in this scenario both parties have valid points. Could it have been handled better, probably. But this is just my opinion.

Thats fair. The problem is that the owner asked me to show him pics of my tank and use it as an example to start out. You can't have a full blown reef tank in 24hrs or shoot even 6 weeks without asking for trouble. It seemed to me like he was wanting this guy to load up on livestock and then when it died, return for more.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

he owner said that this guy could throw saltwater, live rock, and live sand in the tank and drop a fish in immediately.

he is correct:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

You can't have a full blown reef tank in 24hrs or shoot even 6 weeks without asking for trouble.

YOU are correct.

 

[Surfandturf]

he is correct:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

YOU are correct.

Lol

 

[hart24601]

I recently sold my biocube 14 and can't believe I didn't take more pics! This was ages ago, with my old junk phone and when the tank still had sand! I eventually went all sps and moved the other coral besides zoa's on the bottom and the orange moni completely covered the back wall, can see here it's just starting.

 

[Coastie Reefer]

If you buy completely cured live rock you can have a fully functional reef tank in the time it takes you to get the rock and water in the tank... is it recommended for a new reefer, no, but it is viable. I run a standard 10g and other than staring at it and adding about a cup of top off everyday, it doesn't require much. It definitely doesn't require daily maintenance. I do perform a water change every few weeks and I stir up my sand an turkey baste my rock to help get rid any detritus or nutrients that might have built up. I change my filter media about once a month.

I don't think the lfs was setting the customer up for complete failure, but they weren't setting them up for optimal success either... I do think your advice to research before jumping in was spot on though. Only problem is people tend to do "research" via store employees and that most definitely can be troublesome depending on your particular lfs...

 

[Surfandturf]

I recently sold my biocube 14 and can't believe I didn't take more pics! This was ages ago, with my old junk phone and when the tank still had sand! I eventually went all sps and moved the other coral besides zoa's on the bottom and the orange moni completely covered the back wall, can see here it's just starting.

I started with a biocube 14 years ago. Not a bad tank, but terrible lights.