Difficult to keep fish, should we even keep them?

[Gumbies R Us]

One of the benefits of this hobby is the number of different fish we can keep in our reef tanks. Even though there are a lot of relatively easy fish to keep, such as clownfish, there are also difficult-to-keep fish like Moorish Idols. As reef keepers, should we refrain from these more difficult-to-keep fish, or should we embrace the challenge? Curious to hear what everyone says!

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

One of the benefits of this hobby is the number of different fish we can keep in our reef tanks. Even though there are a lot of relatively easy fish to keep, such as clownfish, there are also difficult-to-keep fish like Moorish Idols. As reef keepers, should we refrain from these more difficult-to-keep fish, or should we embrace the challenge? Curious to hear what everyone says!

This has been an area of interest to me for a long time. Developing a plan to meet the challenge to keep a certain species is one thing, but it is another to acquire a challenging species without knowing the issues, or not caring about the issues - that just causes undue fish loss.

I've maintained a list of "animals to avoid" for many years and posted it as an updated article here:

https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/marine-fish-and-invertebrates-to-avoid.939/

 

[fishguy777]

One of the benefits of this hobby is the number of different fish we can keep in our reef tanks. Even though there are a lot of relatively easy fish to keep, such as clownfish, there are also difficult-to-keep fish like Moorish Idols. As reef keepers, should we refrain from these more difficult-to-keep fish, or should we embrace the challenge? Curious to hear what everyone says!

every fish in the hobby is easy to keep, as long as it’s a healthy specimen from the get go. A reliable source is all it takes

 

[Savage Henry]

Great topic.

I think a related topic is who should be allowed to keep fish.

This applies to any captive animals, whether it be a domesticated animal or a wild animal.

Have you ever been in a LFS and witnessed a customer say, “I want that one and that one and yeah one of those ones as well”? I saw it not long ago and the salesperson did try to moderate the customer a little but still sold the customer what they wanted. The customer was like a kid in a candy store.

But back to your topic, it’s really difficult when it comes to fish being kept by expert hobbyists (I don’t consider myself one). Yes, they can maintain excellent parameters and keep a relatively suitable bio space, but it is always going to be like taking a piece of ocean and keeping a full size fish in a miniaturised environment. Even tangs kept in a 1000 gallon tank are miniaturised. Even a single damselfish kept in a 1000 gallon tank is miniaturised. All of these fish in nature would swim about covering areas much larger volumes of water than 1000 gallons. I’ve watched pairs of five inch wrasses do figure 8s over a thirty square foot area. I’ve watched the same sized catfish congregate together to form a colum about twelve foot high.

The fish are never going to be able to do all that they do in nature.

Having said that, in the right hands they can live long lives and even breed.

It’s a really tough question. I would advocate for there being a list of fish that are limited to expert hobbyists and a list of fish for experienced hobbyists and above and a list of fish for beginners and above and a list of criteria people should meet before they can keep a fish.

 

[W31Olds]

Jay, interesting list. The one I always wanted to keep and found it very puzzling was the Rock Beauty. I had one long ago (juvenile) and it passed, however I can say people were just learning how much of a challenge it was to keep these. I never really understood why these are such a challenge when other angels do well. Also, the invert section of you list may need some updating. Don't many of the inverts just have a short lifespan? Not necessarily hard to keep.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

every fish in the hobby is easy to keep, as long as it’s a healthy specimen from the get go. A reliable source is all it takes

Wow, that is quite a strong statement. Have you kept many of these hard to keep specimens on Jay's list long term? They have special needs, not just a healthy start.

Marine fishes that almost never survive past the year mark in closed system aquariums

Centropyge (Paracentropyge) multifasciatus Many banded angelfish
Chaetodon citrinellus Citron butterflyfish
C. lavartus Masked butterflyfish
C. reticulatus Reticulated butterflyfish
Doryrhamphus sp. Banded pipefish
Holocanthus tricolor Rock beauty angelfish
Gorgasia preclara Gold-banded garden eel
Macropharyngodon sp. Ornate wrasse (may be hardier once established)
Ostracion sp. Boxfish (some cowfish as well)
Oxymonacanthus longirostris Orange-spot filefish
Platax pinnatus Red-rimmed batfish
Pseudanthias tuka Tuka anthias
Pygoplites diacanthus Regal angelfish (Except Red Sea)
Rhinomuraena quaesita Ribbon eel
Scarus sp. (large specimens) Parrotfish (except bicolor)

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Jay, interesting list. The one I always wanted to keep and found it very puzzling was the Rock Beauty. I had one long ago (juvenile) and it passed, however I can say people were just learning how much of a challenge it was to keep these. I never really understood why these are such a challenge when other angels do well. Also, the invert section of you list may need some updating. Don't many of the inverts just have a short lifespan? Not necessarily hard to keep.

I might revise rock beauties now that more is known about meeting their dietary needs, but they are still pretty tough to keep long term. I did have one for over two years in the 1980’s, but although it looked good, it just never grew much. I don’t recall the circumstances of its death.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Wow, that is quite a strong statement. Have you kept many of these hard to keep specimens on Jay's list long term? They have special needs, not just a healthy start.

Marine fishes that almost never survive past the year mark in closed system aquariums

Centropyge (Paracentropyge) multifasciatus Many banded angelfish
Chaetodon citrinellus Citron butterflyfish
C. lavartus Masked butterflyfish
C. reticulatus Reticulated butterflyfish
Doryrhamphus sp. Banded pipefish
Holocanthus tricolor Rock beauty angelfish
Gorgasia preclara Gold-banded garden eel
Macropharyngodon sp. Ornate wrasse (may be hardier once established)
Ostracion sp. Boxfish (some cowfish as well)
Oxymonacanthus longirostris Orange-spot filefish
Platax pinnatus Red-rimmed batfish
Pseudanthias tuka Tuka anthias
Pygoplites diacanthus Regal angelfish (Except Red Sea)
Rhinomuraena quaesita Ribbon eel
Scarus sp. (large specimens) Parrotfish (except bicolor)

One issue here though: the header in bold here is supposed to apply to the list of fish above it. This list is actually for fish that rarely survive two years in captivity.

 

[littlefoxx]

every fish in the hobby is easy to keep, as long as it’s a healthy specimen from the get go. A reliable source is all it takes

Disagree 100%. There are fish in the hobby that shouldnt be in the hobby because of care needs and the fact they just should stay in the ocean.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

One issue here though: the header in bold here is supposed to apply to the list of fish above it. This list is actually for fish that rarely survive two years in captivity.

Lol

Ok, I usually put titles at the start of a section, not the bottom of it. lol

 

[fishguy777]

Disagree 100%. There are fish in the hobby that shouldnt be in the hobby because of care needs and the fact they just should stay in the ocean.

I’ve had plenty of extremely difficult fish. Many were on Jay’s list.

I walked into owning my stingray basically blind when it comes to how hard they can be to get eating etc. luckily for me he ate right away. Same with my moorish idol, etc.

I can say for certain if I didn’t get these healthy specimens I would not have them today.

 

[littlefoxx]

I’ve had plenty of extremely difficult fish. Many were on Jay’s list.

I walked into owning my stingray basically blind when it comes to how hard they can be to get eating etc. luckily for me he ate right away. Same with my moorish idol, etc.

I can say for certain if I didn’t get these healthy specimens I would not have them today.

Im talking octopuses, sharks, rays, the giant moray eel ect… unless you have like a 1000 gallon at least, and for some of those I say too small anyway. That has nothing to do with the health of the fish or their feeding requirements but more quality of life not so much the feeding and stuff like that. More the ability to provide a very large space for them.

I love sharks, I would never put one in my 300 gallon, too small and I would feel horrible that it was in a small space. I also would love to have a giant moray but again space.

@guppygoliath is a great example of what Im taking, he has two Goliath groupers and made sure they have the space they need which I think is amazing.

 

[fishguy777]

Im talking octopuses, sharks, rays, the giant moray eel ect… unless you have like a 1000 gallon at least, and for some of those I say too small anyway. That has nothing to do with the health of the fish or their feeding requirements but more quality of life not so much the feeding and stuff like that. More the ability to provide a very large space for them.

I love sharks, I would never put one in my 300 gallon, too small and I would feel horrible that it was in a small space. I also would love to have a giant moray but again space.

@guppygoliath is a great example of what Im taking, he has two Goliath groupers and made sure they have the space they need which I think is amazing.

I’d say common aquarium sharks, rays, eels, and groupers are all easy to keep. I have now or have had them.

Fish like these take extra planning, and of course water volume.

I 100% agree that giants like Goliath grouper, black tip sharks, giant eels, etc. shouldn’t be available to the average aquarist. And on top of that, it’s the shops responsibility to make sure the fish goes to a good home, like guppy Goliath was able to provide

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Lol

Ok, I usually put titles at the start of a section, not the bottom of it. lol

Maybe I should change it, or at least put in larger spaces between the sections.

This started off as a magazine article with captions under the tables.

Edit: I went and changed it, much clearer now!

 

[Savage Henry]

Recently I saw with disbelief golden trevally being sold in LFS.

Some years ago I caught a tiny hammer head shark and it occurred to me at the time I could sell it to an aquarium store. I let it go though.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Recently I saw with disbelief golden trevally being sold in LFS.

Some years ago I caught a tiny hammer head shark and it occurred to me at the time I could sell it to an aquarium store. I let it go though.

The golden trevally are captive raised for the food industry and some bright guy got the idea to divert some of those to the pet trade. They quickly grow to 100 cm and top out at about 120 cm! There are public aquariums that can't handle them at that size.....

 

[Savage Henry]

The golden trevally are captive raised for the food industry and some bright guy got the idea to divert some of those to the pet trade. They quickly grow to 100 cm and top out at about 120 cm! There are public aquariums that can't handle them at that size.....

The other issue is that fish like that are ferocious hunters. What could you put it with?

 

[Paul B]

every fish in the hobby is easy to keep, as long as it’s a healthy specimen from the get go. A reliable source is all it takes

I totally disagree with this statement. I have probably kept just about every type of fish available and many I collected myself and I know very well the ones I can't keep.

Many types we just can't give them the diet they need to live on, and by live I mean to live for their presumed lifespan which for many fish is 20-30 years. 4 or 5 years is not a success for almost all fish. If you keep a clownfish for 10 years and it dies, that is a failure because they can live 40 years. I have 2 almost that age now.

I have gravel in my tank so I can't keep most sand sifters as they starve because they can't sift gravel.

I kept a couple of Moorish Idols for 5 years which is a complete failure but almost a record for that fish. I can collect enough sponge for it in the summer but not the winter.

Many fish grow much too large for a "normal home tank" and many need thousands of gallons of water to live in.

I see many people keeping cowfish or "Boston Baked Beans" fish which are just juvenile boxfish, but they get huge in the sea.

Many fish need to live in large schools as they do in the sea. That is one reason tangs are thought of as Ich Magnets. They are always stressed.

And some fish are just too poisonous to keep at home.

 

[JayM]

That's a tough call. On one side of the argument one could easily say "no" because it's not cool to keep a fish that's almost certainly going to die. On the other hand, if people don't attempt to keep the "hard to keep" fish, we'll never know how to keep them.

It's probably safe to assume that there's plenty of common aquarium inhabitants that were once hard to keep, but aren't anymore now that more is known about the husbandry requirements.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

It's probably safe to assume that there's plenty of common aquarium inhabitants that were once hard to keep, but aren't anymore now that more is known about the husbandry requirements.

A nonfish example of that are the large host anemones. Ron Shimek used to rage about them being doomed and folks were killing anemones that had been around for decades since they grew so slow.

He was right about them often dying, but likely wrong about the presumed age. Since folks began treating them with antibiotics after shipping, success rates went way up, and we then learned that they can grow quite fast under good conditions.