Dino identification under microscope

[aeoluson]

Hi all,

I’m trying to figure out what I’m dealing with in my tank and could use some help with identification.

The tank is about 6 months old. Over the last month while I’ve been getting a dusty brown to greenish coating across the sandbed. It comes back pretty quickly after I disturb it, sometimes within a few hours. It is not really slimy, and I don’t see much of anything on the rocks yet. Some of the heavier areas look a little stringy, but I’m not seeing a lot of bubbles.

Current parameters are roughly:

NO3: 7.7 ppm
PO4: 0.09 ppm
Alk: 8.1 dKH
Salinity: 35 ppt

I was really careful with nutrients and even dosed nitrate and phosphate when they were close to 0. Not sure why I still got dinos. I did clean the sandbed quite often during water change. Maybe that mess up the biome.

I picked up a microscope and sampled the film directly from the sand. I’m seeing quite a few golden brown oval cells that are actively moving. I attached a video of them under the microscope.

Does this look like Amphidinium, Prorocentrum, or something else?


Also interested in what has worked best for people dealing with this type. I already run UV, although I understand it may not help much if this is large cell Amphidinium. I’m curious about silicate dosing, encouraging diatoms, reducing sandbed cleaning, or anything else that has worked long term.

Thanks for the help!

 

[aeoluson]

Here is the sandbed under white light

 

[MikeReefs]

Yes this is Large Cell/Small cell. The small cell ones are fast moving. They cover rock and sand and burrow when lights go out. Bacteria dosing using Mb7 or MicrobLift special blend. You need to outcompete them. Increase your microbiome this could be done by adding Aflifesource or live sand/rock. Silicate dosing is another method. This is how I beat large/small cell. The aftermath was large amounts of green hair Algea

 

[aeoluson]

Yes this is Large Cell/Small cell. The small cell ones are fast moving. They cover rock and sand and burrow when lights go out. Bacteria dosing using Mb7 or MicrobLift special blend. You need to outcompete them. Increase your microbiome this could be done by adding Aflifesource or live sand/rock. Silicate dosing is another method. This is how I beat large/small cell. The aftermath was large amounts of green hair Algea

Thanks for the reply. Does this type of dino cause immediate harm that need to be dealt with quickly? Is silicate dosing a faster/more aggressive approach?

 

[MikeReefs]

Thanks for the reply. Does this type of dino cause immediate harm that need to be dealt with quickly? Is silicate dosing a faster/more aggressive approach?

It’s one of the least toxic Dino’s. It won’t harm fish at least from my experience. But can harm sensitive corals like sps. If inverts eat it can kill them. They usually won’t touch it though. The problem is when Dino’s take over not much other Algea have the realestate to grown and as a result inverts starve. Throw in some Algea pellets or seaweed during this phase.

Another thing make sure your Nitrate and Phosphate isn’t bottomed out if it is raise them. It could take months to beat Dino’s

Silicate approach is aggressive and your take will look horrible. I was siphoning the Dino strands into a 1micron sock and returning the water back into the tank

 

[paraletho]

When you get them beat back. Hit them with some real ocean live rock and some sand. This is what finished them off for me. I think that diversity helps get things back in balance.

 

[DaJMasta]

Do you have livestock? Have you considered adding a sand sifting fish? While it is unsightly, some of this is usually mediated by normal livestock activity, and unless it's big clumps or its encroaching on corals, it's not likely to be a big negative impact on the livestock.

May not directly effect the dinos, but your phosphate is low relative to your nitrate - both are reasonable levels, but having too much nitrate proportionally can throw things out of whack a bit. I think it's easier to maintain a slightly higher phosphate and use about that for your nitrate level.

Did you start with live rock? 6 months should be plenty of seasoning time with live rock in a reasonable quantity and livestock added later, but if you started with dry rock and held off on adding corals for months, it could be still that you're working through the early stage uglies.

 

[EnterName]

I agree with the "Amphidinium" identification (see post #3, page 1). Regarding the toxins I'm careful with giving a verdict because toxin production of many dinoflagellates appears to be strain and environment-dependent and we don't even know the species.

You can certainly try adding bottled bacteria products, but they can just as well provide another food source for the dinoflagellates you are dealing with. This post (page 1, post #4) explains why many products won't necessarily provide much living bacteria at all and judging from the bacteria actually contained in those bottles, the "diversity" aspect is negligible with 3 - 10 species in tanks that house hundreds of species.

In my opinion manual removal and water changes are definitely beneficial. People are always afraid of the introduced trace elements that will support dinoflagellate growth but without those trace elements competing organisms won't have a chance establishing either.

If that doesn't work silicate dosing is certainly another option and you can actually see organisms competing over the same space (and therefore light) with those dinos. Some dinos still prey on diatoms though, so I think you need to get the diatom numbers up by a lot to actually have a beneficial effect. It will leave the substrate discolored for quite a while and the glass will need to be cleaned more frequently, but diatoms don't really hurt your system.

 

[aeoluson]

Do you have livestock? Have you considered adding a sand sifting fish? While it is unsightly, some of this is usually mediated by normal livestock activity, and unless it's big clumps or its encroaching on corals, it's not likely to be a big negative impact on the livestock.

May not directly effect the dinos, but your phosphate is low relative to your nitrate - both are reasonable levels, but having too much nitrate proportionally can throw things out of whack a bit. I think it's easier to maintain a slightly higher phosphate and use about that for your nitrate level.

Did you start with live rock? 6 months should be plenty of seasoning time with live rock in a reasonable quantity and livestock added later, but if you started with dry rock and held off on adding corals for months, it could be still that you're working through the early stage uglies.

I added about 5 lbs of live rock in the sump at the beginning and have been adding corals constantly. One thing I suspect is overclean the sand. I siphon the detritus quite aggressively during the weekly water change. Maybe that threw off the bacteria balance. What's the best way to raise only phosphate? I've been draining out the froze food liquid, maybe pour those into the tank as well?

 

[aeoluson]

I agree with the "Amphidinium" identification (see post #3, page 1). Regarding the toxins I'm careful with giving a verdict because toxin production of many dinoflagellates appears to be strain and environment-dependent and we don't even know the species.

You can certainly try adding bottled bacteria products, but they can just as well provide another food source for the dinoflagellates you are dealing with. This post (page 1, post #4) explains why many products won't necessarily provide much living bacteria at all and judging from the bacteria actually contained in those bottles, the "diversity" aspect is negligible with 3 - 10 species in tanks that house hundreds of species.

In my opinion manual removal and water changes are definitely beneficial. People are always afraid of the introduced trace elements that will support dinoflagellate growth but without those trace elements competing organisms won't have a chance establishing either.

If that doesn't work silicate dosing is certainly another option and you can actually see organisms competing over the same space (and therefore light) with those dinos. Some dinos still prey on diatoms though, so I think you need to get the diatom numbers up by a lot to actually have a beneficial effect. It will leave the substrate discolored for quite a while and the glass will need to be cleaned more frequently, but diatoms don't really hurt your system.

Looks like AF life source is the way to go if I want to try the bateria product route? Do you know how long it would take to see an improvement? Right now it's still limited to the sand but I don't want it to grow out of control before I switch to silicate

 

[EnterName]

I agree with the "Amphidinium" identification (see post #3, page 1). Regarding the toxins I'm careful with giving a verdict because toxin production of many dinoflagellates appears to be strain and environment-dependent and we don't even know the species.

You can certainly try adding bottled bacteria products, but they can just as well provide another food source for the dinoflagellates you are dealing with. This post (page 1, post #4) explains why many products won't necessarily provide much living bacteria at all and judging from the bacteria actually contained in those bottles, the "diversity" aspect is negligible with 3 - 10 species in tanks that house hundreds of species.

In my opinion manual removal and water changes are definitely beneficial. People are always afraid of the introduced trace elements that will support dinoflagellate growth but without those trace elements competing organisms won't have a chance establishing either.

If that doesn't work silicate dosing is certainly another option and you can actually see organisms competing over the same space (and therefore light) with those dinos. Some dinos still prey on diatoms though, so I think you need to get the diatom numbers up by a lot to actually have a beneficial effect. It will leave the substrate discolored for quite a while and the glass will need to be cleaned more frequently, but diatoms don't really hurt your system.

Looks like AF life source is the way to go if I want to try the bateria product route? Do you know how long it would take to see an improvement? Right now it's still limited to the sand but I don't want it to grow out of control before I switch to silicate

I would use Tropic Marin Nitribiotic because those bacteria actually survive being bottled.
AF lifesource has a large "diversity" but the actual number of viable cells is probably much lower.

I will have to conduct a few tests before giving my actual judgement on AF life source though. From a diversity standpoint I really wish it has viable cells.

 

[DaJMasta]

5 pounds and added corals should give you enough of a microbiome innoculation to be fine within 6 months, imo, so while things still may be settling, I don't think you're like missing critical components or anything.

People say frozen foods are good sources of phosphate (I think it's just that they are less concentrated sources of nitrate), and I think the fines in the liquid are beneficial for small mouths and plankton feeders, so I'd just thaw it in tankwater and feed everything (what I do.) It may also be possible to just feed more, depending on tank size, bioload, etc. - this hobby has a long history of underfeeding in favor of algae/parameter management and it's not always to the benefit of some of the livestock.

But while I would make sure I was feeding enough and monitor things - is what you see really a problem? If it's encroaching on corals and killing them, yeah you are right to want to remove it, but if it's just sort of looking ugly... I think less intervention can sometimes lead to less dramatic shifts to correct for changes and ultimately a quicker path to long term success. Some amount of cosmetic maintenance is fine, but I'm not sure big course correction is necessary here unless things are being harmed.

 

[EnterName]

5 pounds and added corals should give you enough of a microbiome innoculation to be fine within 6 months, imo, so while things still may be settling, I don't think you're like missing critical components or anything.

People say frozen foods are good sources of phosphate (I think it's just that they are less concentrated sources of nitrate), and I think the fines in the liquid are beneficial for small mouths and plankton feeders, so I'd just thaw it in tankwater and feed everything (what I do.) It may also be possible to just feed more, depending on tank size, bioload, etc. - this hobby has a long history of underfeeding in favor of algae/parameter management and it's not always to the benefit of some of the livestock.

But while I would make sure I was feeding enough and monitor things - is what you see really a problem? If it's encroaching on corals and killing them, yeah you are right to want to remove it, but if it's just sort of looking ugly... I think less intervention can sometimes lead to less dramatic shifts to correct for changes and ultimately a quicker path to long term success. Some amount of cosmetic maintenance is fine, but I'm not sure big course correction is necessary here unless things are being harmed.

All living beings I'm aware of have N:P ratios above 1 so there is no natural food you will find that adds more phosphate than nitrate. It's just immediately measurable in the thawed water (see https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/f...affect-phosphate-levels-in-aquariums.1129634/)

Adding food also increases organics so if you want to control nitrogen or phosphorus availability I always recommend using DIY solutions rather than overfeeding or you will just pollute the tank with all sorts of stuff while never being able to actually control how C, N, and P will ultimately behave in the tank.

 

[aeoluson]

5 pounds and added corals should give you enough of a microbiome innoculation to be fine within 6 months, imo, so while things still may be settling, I don't think you're like missing critical components or anything.

People say frozen foods are good sources of phosphate (I think it's just that they are less concentrated sources of nitrate), and I think the fines in the liquid are beneficial for small mouths and plankton feeders, so I'd just thaw it in tankwater and feed everything (what I do.) It may also be possible to just feed more, depending on tank size, bioload, etc. - this hobby has a long history of underfeeding in favor of algae/parameter management and it's not always to the benefit of some of the livestock.

But while I would make sure I was feeding enough and monitor things - is what you see really a problem? If it's encroaching on corals and killing them, yeah you are right to want to remove it, but if it's just sort of looking ugly... I think less intervention can sometimes lead to less dramatic shifts to correct for changes and ultimately a quicker path to long term success. Some amount of cosmetic maintenance is fine, but I'm not sure big course correction is necessary here unless things are being harmed.

Honestly it's not causing any issues right now, they are limited to the sand. I'm more concerned because of what I read about Dino. I don't want to only start treatment when it gets out of control. Would dino's improve on their own?