Dinos keep coming back: Ostreopsis

[n8harp]

Tank parameters today were as follows: phosphate 0.31 Nitrate 3.6 (after dosing nitrogen, a few days ago it was 0.6ppm). 78 degrees. Salinity 34.6 ppt.

Had bad case of ostreopsis last year and got an 18 watt UV sterilizer for 26g cube. When we took it offline after clearing the dinos, they slowly came back. We ran the UV sterilizer for about a month and a half and took it off about 8 days ago. Sure enough, dinos are starting to come back.

What about the water chemistry is allowing dinos to keep coming back even after treating with UV sterilizer? I have a redsea max nano tank. What am I missing? Or do I just need to always run my UV sterilizer at night and not take it offline ever again? I also had cyano on the sand but removed it all.

Also battling aiptasia... my relationship with this hobby is similar to my relationship with golf

 

[Mark Goode]

I bought a UV steriliser for ostreopsis a couple of years ago. It got rid of them overnight, and it's been running ever since (I'm on the third tube).

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Tank parameters today were as follows: phosphate 0.31 Nitrate 3.6 (after dosing nitrogen, a few days ago it was 0.6ppm). 78 degrees. Salinity 34.6 ppt.

Had bad case of ostreopsis last year and got an 18 watt UV sterilizer for 26g cube. When we took it offline after clearing the dinos, they slowly came back. We ran the UV sterilizer for about a month and a half and took it off about 8 days ago. Sure enough, dinos are starting to come back.

What about the water chemistry is allowing dinos to keep coming back even after treating with UV sterilizer? I have a redsea max nano tank. What am I missing? Or do I just need to always run my UV sterilizer at night and not take it offline ever again? I also had cyano on the sand but removed it all.

Also battling aiptasia... my relationship with this hobby is similar to my relationship with golf

I would not assume it’s a chemistry problem as opposed to a biology problem. Keeping the uv, manual removal, and boosting competitors such as with silicate may be helpful.

Water changes can be detrimental in some dino cases. Dosing trace elements may be detrimental for the same reason.

 

[n8harp]

Tank parameters today were as follows: phosphate 0.31 Nitrate 3.6 (after dosing nitrogen, a few days ago it was 0.6ppm). 78 degrees. Salinity 34.6 ppt.

Had bad case of ostreopsis last year and got an 18 watt UV sterilizer for 26g cube. When we took it offline after clearing the dinos, they slowly came back. We ran the UV sterilizer for about a month and a half and took it off about 8 days ago. Sure enough, dinos are starting to come back.

What about the water chemistry is allowing dinos to keep coming back even after treating with UV sterilizer? I have a redsea max nano tank. What am I missing? Or do I just need to always run my UV sterilizer at night and not take it offline ever again? I also had cyano on the sand but removed it all.

Also battling aiptasia... my relationship with this hobby is similar to my relationship with golf

I would not assume it’s a chemistry problem as opposed to a biology problem. Keeping the uv, manual removal, and boosting competitors such as with silicate may be helpful.

Water changes can be detrimental in some dino cases. Dosing trace elements may be detrimental for the same reason.

Thank you sir! Was planning on upgrading to a UNS R90 but want to get the tank in better condition before going from small tank to 60g. I would plumb the UV into the return so wondering if I should upgrade sooner than later. But I feel I want a couple months of things going steady. Can someone link to an article discussing how to dose silicate?

 

[Dan_P]

I would not assume it’s a chemistry problem as opposed to a biology problem. Keeping the uv, manual removal, and boosting competitors such as with silicate may be helpful.

Water changes can be detrimental in some dino cases. Dosing trace elements may be detrimental for the same reason.

Fun side note.

I have two identical (they started out identically anyway) 2 gal experimental aquaria inoculated with water from my aquarium and dosed daily with PO4 (0.5 ppm), silicate (1 ppm SiO2) and ammonium chloride (0.2 ppm total ammonia). In these system inorganic nitrogen is undetectable within several hours of dosing. The system predictably started out growing diatoms but within several weeks has transitioned to a nuisance organism aquarium with a huge population of dinoflagellates. Even the water is hazy from the large population of pelagic dinoflagellates (Amphidinium). It seems it takes more than having silicate available to beat dinoflagellates. An ICP analysis showed low iron, zinc and manganese. These might have played a role in the failure of the diatoms. I am going to repeat this experiment to better understand why the diatoms failed to out compete the dinoflagellates in such a system.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Fun side note.

I have two identical (they started out identically anyway) 2 gal experimental aquaria inoculated with water from my aquarium and dosed daily with PO4 (0.5 ppm), silicate (1 ppm SiO2) and ammonium chloride (0.2 ppm total ammonia). In these system inorganic nitrogen is undetectable within several hours of dosing. The system predictably started out growing diatoms but within several weeks has transitioned to a nuisance organism aquarium with a huge population of dinoflagellates. Even the water is hazy from the large population of pelagic dinoflagellates (Amphidinium). It seems it takes more than having silicate available to beat dinoflagellates. An ICP analysis showed low iron, zinc and manganese. These might have played a role in the failure of the diatoms. I am going to repeat this experiment to better understand why the diatoms failed to out compete the dinoflagellates in such a system.

Interesting. The world is oh so complicated. :)

 

[jeremie]

Fun side note.

I have two identical (they started out identically anyway) 2 gal experimental aquaria inoculated with water from my aquarium and dosed daily with PO4 (0.5 ppm), silicate (1 ppm SiO2) and ammonium chloride (0.2 ppm total ammonia). In these system inorganic nitrogen is undetectable within several hours of dosing. The system predictably started out growing diatoms but within several weeks has transitioned to a nuisance organism aquarium with a huge population of dinoflagellates. Even the water is hazy from the large population of pelagic dinoflagellates (Amphidinium). It seems it takes more than having silicate available to beat dinoflagellates. An ICP analysis showed low iron, zinc and manganese. These might have played a role in the failure of the diatoms. I am going to repeat this experiment to better understand why the diatoms failed to out compete the dinoflagellates in such a system.

It would be interesting to see whether the dinoflagellate bloom can sustain itself over time. Every time I have tried to intentionally grow dinoflagellates in an aquarium, they always seem to eventually crash.

The impact of different nitrogen sources might also be a topic worth investigating. This review paper mentions that blooms of different plankton groups are often associated with different nitrogen sources.
https://www.researchgate.net/public...rce_of_Bioavailable_Nitrogen_or_Phytoplankton

"Large and/or rapid inputs of NO3- are known to stimulate blooms of diatoms, which are physiologically suited to take advantage of and grow quickly with the onset of NO3- rich conditions."

"Dinoflagellates and cyanobacteria, on the other hand, are typically associated with increased availability of reduced N, such as NH4+ and urea,relative to NO3-. In comparison, heterotrophic bacteria tend to rely predominantly on DFAA and NH4+, although other studies have shown substantial bacterial uptake of NO3- in various marine ecosystems."

 

[Dan_P]

It would be interesting to see whether the dinoflagellate bloom can sustain itself over time. Every time I have tried to intentionally grow dinoflagellates in an aquarium, they always seem to eventually crash.

The impact of different nitrogen sources might also be a topic worth investigating. This review paper mentions that blooms of different plankton groups are often associated with different nitrogen sources.
https://www.researchgate.net/public...rce_of_Bioavailable_Nitrogen_or_Phytoplankton

"Large and/or rapid inputs of NO3- are known to stimulate blooms of diatoms, which are physiologically suited to take advantage of and grow quickly with the onset of NO3- rich conditions."

"Dinoflagellates and cyanobacteria, on the other hand, are typically associated with increased availability of reduced N, such as NH4+ and urea,relative to NO3-. In comparison, heterotrophic bacteria tend to rely predominantly on DFAA and NH4+, although other studies have shown substantial bacterial uptake of NO3- in various marine ecosystems."

Thanks for the review artcle.

How did you attempt to grow dinoflagellates? At what time point did they crash? The dinoflagellates (Amphidinium) in my experimental systems have been around for weeks. I switched from ammonium chloride to sodium nitrate as a nitrogen source to see what would happen before ending the experiment, which will happen this weekend.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

There are lots of reefers who wish their dinos would crash . lol

 

[jeremie]

Thanks for the review artcle.

How did you attempt to grow dinoflagellates? At what time point did they crash? The dinoflagellates (Amphidinium) in my experimental systems have been around for weeks. I switched from ammonium chloride to sodium nitrate as a nitrogen source to see what would happen before ending the experiment, which will happen this weekend.

It was about 7 or 8 years ago, so I might be missing some details. The systems I set up back then were seeded with rocks from one of my tanks that was infested with dinos at the time (it was Ostreopsis if I remember correctly). All the tanks had a layer of brand new aragonite sand, and I dosed the tanks with nitrate and phosphate (I can’t remember the exact values). As I recall, none of the blooms lasted over 4~5 weeks, and most systems actually never developed any bloom at all. Instead, most of them shifted into a turf/hair algae phase, even though the rocks I used to seed those tanks were originally covered with dinos.

 

[jeremie]

There are lots of reefers who wish their dinos would crash . lol

What’s more ironic is that when I was trying to grow dinos intentionally in experimental tanks, I was also battling them in one of my display tanks for over six months. It makes me wonder if they somehow know whether I want them in the tank or not.

 

[EnterName]

The system predictably started out growing diatoms but within several weeks has transitioned to a nuisance organism aquarium with a huge population of dinoflagellates. Even the water is hazy from the large population of pelagic dinoflagellates (Amphidinium). It seems it takes more than having silicate available to beat dinoflagellates.

I have observed dinos (Ostreopsis & Prorocentrum) and diatoms (Licmophora sp.? and some other genus) together for so long, that I'm convinced it is more of a symbiosis than a competition :D

I assume you have to reach a critical mass of diatoms to actually reduce dinoflagellate growth. I've got really lucky that it is limited to the glass walls and can be scraped off easily, but I'm afraid that changing tanks will cause an outbreak when new substrate and a lot of glass is available as surface area to occupy.

(likely Licmophora sp. and Ostreopsis sp. at 400x magnification in DIC microscopy)​

 

[alan.reef]

Can anyone recommend which microscope to get?
I have very thick brown stuff!!!! always growing on glass after I scrape if off within 2 days

 

[Dan_P]

It was about 7 or 8 years ago, so I might be missing some details. The systems I set up back then were seeded with rocks from one of my tanks that was infested with dinos at the time (it was Ostreopsis if I remember correctly). All the tanks had a layer of brand new aragonite sand, and I dosed the tanks with nitrate and phosphate (I can’t remember the exact values). As I recall, none of the blooms lasted over 4~5 weeks, and most systems actually never developed any bloom at all. Instead, most of them shifted into a turf/hair algae phase, even though the rocks I used to seed those tanks were originally covered with dinos.

Thanks for the update. This is was the design I used as well and now consider it a dead end for duplicating dinoflagellates films in an experimental aquarium. I worked with 0.2, 1 and 8 liter aquaria. I grew nasty looking periphyton with a vey high population of dinoflagellates everywhere. I believe our results are actually useful in that they challenge the notion that water chemistry predicts or causes dinoflagellate film formation.

I am moving on to a diifferent approach to induce patchy dinoflagellate film growth.

 

[Dan_P]

I have observed dinos (Ostreopsis & Prorocentrum) and diatoms (Licmophora sp.? and some other genus) together for so long, that I'm convinced it is more of a symbiosis than a competition :D

I assume you have to reach a critical mass of diatoms to actually reduce dinoflagellate growth. I've got really lucky that it is limited to the glass walls and can be scraped off easily, but I'm afraid that changing tanks will cause an outbreak when new substrate and a lot of glass is available as surface area to occupy.

(likely Licmophora sp. and Ostreopsis sp. at 400x magnification in DIC microscopy)​

You can almost depend on a troublesome growth when disrupting a system and giving them clean surfaces to colonize, just like a new aquarium. Diatoms will grow for sure, but I don’t know the reason why dinoflagellates would grow, hence the experiments. Like cyanobacteria films and mats, water chemistry probably plays a minor role. Water chemistry drives overall periphyton development but probably does not turn on or off dinoflagellate films.

 

[EnterName]

I have observed dinos (Ostreopsis & Prorocentrum) and diatoms (Licmophora sp.? and some other genus) together for so long, that I'm convinced it is more of a symbiosis than a competition :D

I assume you have to reach a critical mass of diatoms to actually reduce dinoflagellate growth. I've got really lucky that it is limited to the glass walls and can be scraped off easily, but I'm afraid that changing tanks will cause an outbreak when new substrate and a lot of glass is available as surface area to occupy.

(likely Licmophora sp. and Ostreopsis sp. at 400x magnification in DIC microscopy)​

You can almost depend on a troublesome growth when disrupting a system and giving them clean surfaces to colonize, just like a new aquarium. Diatoms will grow for sure, but I don’t know the reason why dinoflagellates would grow, hence the experiments. Like cyanobacteria films and mats, water chemistry probably plays a minor role. Water chemistry drives overall periphyton development but probably does not turn on or off dinoflagellate films.

Hm... in my system diatoms and dinos always grow together. If I add a new rock, it will get covered for two or three weeks and then it's fine. The same for new substrate.
Places where two corals are stinging each other will also be covered. I assume the necrosis causes local nutrient spikes or so.
Rocks never show any algae growth, but the power heads tend to grow hair algae which also gets covered in diatoms and dinos.

NO3 becomes undetectable over time and PO4 is below 0.07. If this is still a "too high nutrients" issue, the new tank should solve it. No dirt in the sump, all rocks will be freed of detritus by shaking them in a bucket of saltwater, and the substrate will be completely new. I have only 4 fish in 625L/165gal right now, so I don't think the tank is overstocked. Adding ammonia and phosphate seems to reduce the diatom and dino growth, but the green hair algae and a tiny bit of sea lettuce will grow faster on the powerheads.

We will see. As long as my corals and fish are healthy, water parameters are in check and there only is algae on the powerheads and maybe a small spot on the back wall, I'm not too worried about it.

 

[141918]

Fun side note.

I have two identical (they started out identically anyway) 2 gal experimental aquaria inoculated with water from my aquarium and dosed daily with PO4 (0.5 ppm), silicate (1 ppm SiO2) and ammonium chloride (0.2 ppm total ammonia). In these system inorganic nitrogen is undetectable within several hours of dosing. The system predictably started out growing diatoms but within several weeks has transitioned to a nuisance organism aquarium with a huge population of dinoflagellates. Even the water is hazy from the large population of pelagic dinoflagellates (Amphidinium). It seems it takes more than having silicate available to beat dinoflagellates. An ICP analysis showed low iron, zinc and manganese. These might have played a role in the failure of the diatoms. I am going to repeat this experiment to better understand why the diatoms failed to out compete the dinoflagellates in such a system.

Grab the UV sweeper from 3D reefing. It works on rocks and sand with tenacity. Just make sure not to expose corals or inverts in the process. Completely a game changer. However, need to make sure the environment is suitable for other less problematic invaders.

 

[141918]

Tank parameters today were as follows: phosphate 0.31 Nitrate 3.6 (after dosing nitrogen, a few days ago it was 0.6ppm). 78 degrees. Salinity 34.6 ppt.

Had bad case of ostreopsis last year and got an 18 watt UV sterilizer for 26g cube. When we took it offline after clearing the dinos, they slowly came back. We ran the UV sterilizer for about a month and a half and took it off about 8 days ago. Sure enough, dinos are starting to come back.

What about the water chemistry is allowing dinos to keep coming back even after treating with UV sterilizer? I have a redsea max nano tank. What am I missing? Or do I just need to always run my UV sterilizer at night and not take it offline ever again? I also had cyano on the sand but removed it all.

Also battling aiptasia... my relationship with this hobby is similar to my relationship with golf

1. First off, phosphates are way too high and feeding the dinos. Excess will do this without a doubt. They eat the same stuff as everything else. Aim for balanced nutrients of 10:1. Basically for every 100% of no3, you'd want 10% po4.
2. Grab the UV sweeper from 3D reefing. It works on sand and rocks after countless testimonials. Literally a game changer.
3. If it's ostreopsis only, a plumbed or hob UV should suffice if sized properly. If this isn't kicking it, the UV sweeper will definitely push things in the right direction. Make sure to get 100% confirmation under a microscope. Ensure not to blast corals or inverts, ethically.
4. In my experience, bacteria doesn't do a whole lot. I would focus more on proper filtration and a polishing pad. The pad will catch the jerks at night if ostreopsis, along with the UV.
5. Patience. This may take a few weeks to a few months.

I will attach pics of my before and current below. But I'm not out of the woods yet. But what a difference.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

1. First off, phosphates are way too high and feeding the dinos. Excess will do this without a doubt. They eat the same stuff as everything else. Aim for balanced nutrients of 10:1. Basically for every 100% of no3, you'd want 10% po4.
2. Grab the UV sweeper from 3D reefing. It works on sand and rocks after countless testimonials. Literally a game changer.
3. If it's ostreopsis only, a plumbed or hob UV should suffice if sized properly. If this isn't kicking it, the UV sweeper will definitely push things in the right direction. Make sure to get 100% confirmation under a microscope. Ensure not to blast corals or inverts, ethically.
4. In my experience, bacteria doesn't do a whole lot. I would focus more on proper filtration and a polishing pad. The pad will catch the jerks at night if ostreopsis, along with the UV.
5. Patience. This may take a few weeks to a few months.

I will attach pics of my before and current below. But I'm not out of the woods yet. But what a difference.

I don't agree with the various nutrient assertions and targets.

I don't consider N to P ratios to be a good way to think of nutrients (as opposed to absolute levels independent of each other), but even among those recommending the use of ratios, suggesting a target of phosphate at 10% of the nitrate level is extremely high on the phosphate side compared to what others recommend.

If my nitrate were 30 ppm (which I think is fine), you'd target 3 ppm phosphate?

 

[141918]

1. First off, phosphates are way too high and feeding the dinos. Excess will do this without a doubt. They eat the same stuff as everything else. Aim for balanced nutrients of 10:1. Basically for every 100% of no3, you'd want 10` 18 3D reefing. It works on sand and rocks after countless testimonials. Literally a game changer.
3. If it's ostreopsis only, a plumbed or hob UV should suffice if sized properly. If this isn't kicking it, the UV sweeper will definitely push things in the right direction. Make sure to get 100% confirmation under a microscope. Ensure not to blast corals or inverts, ethically.
4. In my experience, bacteria doesn't do a whole lot. I would focus more on proper filtration and a polishing pad. The pad will catch the jerks at night if ostreopsis, along with the UV.
5. Patience. This may take a few weeks to a few months.

I will attach pics of my before and current below. But I'm not out of the woods yet. But what a difference.

I just wanted to add, I fought LCA and some Ostreopsis for almost

I don't agree with the various nutrient assertions and targets.

I don't consider N to P ratios to be a good way to think of nutrients (as opposed to absolute levels independent of each other), but even among those recommending the use of ratios, suggesting a target of phosphate at 10% of the nitrate level is extremely high on the phosphate side compared to what others recommend.

If my nitrate were 30 ppm (which I think is fine), you'd target 3 ppm phosphate?

I don't agree with the various nutrient assertions and targets.

I don't consider N to P ratios to be a good way to think of nutrients (as opposed to absolute levels independent of each other), but even among those recommending the use of ratios, suggesting a target of phosphate at 10% of the nitrate level is extremely high on the phosphate side compared to what others recommend.

If my nitrate were 30 ppm (which I think is fine), you'd target 3 ppm phosphate?

I understand and also don't have any reef chemistry biology to back anything up. It just seems that 10:1 seems to be working well for my current state and have read this balance time after time in reef articles. It doesn't mean it's right or definitive, but there at least seems to be something going on with it. Ive also read 16:1 but have nothing to conclude this ratio.

This is the first time my nutrients are at this equal level of 10:1 and my dinos are the least they've been in a very long time. Id say im at the tipping point for being in control vs aggravated with dinos. Again, not saying it's perfect or have any conclusive evidence of such. But, have been putting in plenty of work and using the UV sweeper to combat this. Not sure how, but maybe it gets worse before it gets better. Sorry, I know this is inconclusive.

Tank tonight is looking awesome. Still not out of the woods but it finally feels like im getting somewhere. Quite possible there is something else happening in the background that I have not seen or measured that's taking place.

I truly don't understand what's happening in the ocean, but as I've read in plenty of articles for many years, is that the nutrients in the ocean are super low. I think the offset is the amount of floating particulate/food that satisfies corals. A fish only tank would be super easy. But keeping corals, even easy to keep ones are sometimes extremely demanding based on current tank state. Dinos severely affect this state with their nutrient uptake, even more at lower levels.

However, and oddly enough, my nutrients have remained above zero for quite some time and has had no effect on dinos. But my nitrate wouldn't budge from 5 to 10 ppm without profusely dosing, and my po4 had risen from 0.05 to 0.3. Since my p04 lessened to 0.1 roughly, the dinos have subsided respectively or coincidentally.

Im just a guy trying to figure this out. However, I've seen a huge decline in dinos since my po4 was brought down and in a 10:1 ratio with nitrate. However, this could be purely speculative and not conclusive.