Disappointing MH PAR numbers?

[rockskimmerflow]

At surface

Yikes that is low. Hmm I don't want to rule out sensor error, but as @jda said your ballasts could be a factor. Curious to know what brand. I've had poor luck with Hamilton ballasts personally. I like their halide pendants, but I've always run older M80s and more recently switched to the solid state Luxcore ballasts on the HQI settings which reduced the wattage draw for the Radiums but have so far proven reliable for a bit over a year. Though, I don't expect them to last the 6+ years that the venerable magnetic ballasts were generally good for in the past.

 

[Knapp870]

Yikes that is low. Hmm I don't want to rule out sensor error, but as @jda said your ballasts could be a factor. Curious to know what brand. I've had poor luck with Hamilton ballasts personally. I like their halide pendants, but I've always run older M80s and more recently switched to the solid state Luxcore ballasts on the HQI settings which reduced the wattage draw for the Radiums but have so far proven reliable for a bit over a year. Though, I don't expect them to last the 6+ years that the venerable magnetic ballasts were generally good for in the past.

Here are two of the ballasts

 

[Knapp870]

I was also. Able. To get like 800+ par out of my 165 watt full Spectrum Led boxes on the meter..

 

[spsick]

What setting is the Apogee on? MH and T5 need a different setting than LED iirc. Last user may have been measuring led.

 

[Knapp870]

What setting is the Apogee on? MH and T5 need a different setting than LED iirc. Last user may have been measuring led.

I tried both sun and electric mode. This came with the black sensor not the gold

 

[Acroporaaddict]

If you'd like me to, I can take some par measurements on a new radium bulb tomorrow. I can test my luxcore electronic ballast on 250w, 250w hqi and can also hook up a magnetic hqi m80 ballast

 

[Knapp870]

Check all wiring connections. Can you take a pic of the ballasts? Reflectors would definitely help, but I'm trying to find out why the bulbs look dim even in photos. If you look at JDA's photo, you wouldn't be able to see the bulb in his reflector if you took a picture of it or look at it.

Phone adjusted it to look dim.

 

[Acroporaaddict]

Do you know what wattage the radium runs at on the 250 hqi setting?

 

[Knapp870]

Do you know what wattage the radium runs at on the 250 hqi setting?

Not off the top of my head. I'd have to look it up

 

[pga7602]

One obvious issue is your photo. You are able to see detail in the bulb and the surrounding background. This is not possible if your bulbs are not totally dim. Your phone or a camera for that matter would not be able to compensate. Either we can see the bulb and the room is black or we can see the room, and the bulb becomes a blinding white blob.

 

[rockskimmerflow]

Phone adjusted it to look dim.

Thanks for the pic. Those look pretty tired out. Maybe try hooking up a magnetic M80 to one of the Radiums if you get a chance. Or if you have a kill a watt meter just to get a sense of how much juice they are pushing try plugging it into one of the ballasts. Then you'll at least have a rough idea of the kind of power output you should be expecting (assuming the ballast isn't defective). I'd guess the Radiums may be getting way under driven. I've seen them hesitate to start sometimes on weaker solid state ballasts or not start at all when put on an M58 spec solid state or magnetic ballast. Not familiar with the hamilton bulb but yeah if you're using the same meter that was registering 800 par on 165watts of LED then you've got something seriously wrong with the metal halide powertrain. If it's a different meter, hard to say with so many variables in the mix. There's almost zero chance that dirty reflectors are dinging you that much with a MH that's in theory getting more wattage than the LED unit you tested.

 

[Knapp870]

If you'd like me to, I can take some par measurements on a new radium bulb tomorrow. I can test my luxcore electronic ballast on 250w, 250w hqi and can also hook up a magnetic hqi m80 ballast

It might be nice to compare if you have the time. Thanks!!

 

[alton]

Do you know anybody close to you that has a reef and test the meter on it? This was with radium lamps, coralvue ballast, and luminbrite pendants. I had one ARO ballast and was not impressed so I never used it.

 

[Dana Riddle]

Years ago, when Charles Delbeek was at the Waikiki Aquarium, he sent me some used Radium lamps to test. If I call correctly, they changed them out every 6 months. I had a Radium over an Acropora tank and PAR was fairly low (using a Coralife luminaire with a white interior.) I'll try to find that log book. With all that said, your PPFD numbers do look low.

 

[Knapp870]

Years ago, when Charles Delbeek was at the Waikiki Aquarium, he sent me some used Radium lamps to test. If I call correctly, they changed them out every 6 months. I had a Radium over an Acropora tank and PAR was fairly low (using a Coralife luminaire with a white interior.) I'll try to find that log book. With all that said, your PPFD numbers do look low.

Thanks Dana. I guess I'm at a point I hate to sink money in either bulbs/reflectors /ballasts till I have a good indication of direction

 

[topjimmy]

I'm getting similar numbers under my mh using the same meter. It was even worse before I realized that I had been running a 250de @ 150w.... For two years.....

Now that I have switched it to the 270w setting it is better but still only 350 par directly under the bulb about 6 inches on top of the water. Bulb is not quite a year old. I have a new Hamilton 20k waiting to go in when I get the chance.

I wonder if there is something up with the meters?

 

[Knapp870]

I'm getting similar numbers under my mh using the same meter. It was even worse before I realized that I had been running a 250de @ 150w.... For two years.....

Now that I have switched it to the 270w setting it is better but still only 350 par directly under the bulb about 6 inches on top of the water. Bulb is not quite a year old. I have a new Hamilton 20k waiting to go in when I get the chance.

I wonder if there is something up with the meters?

This is great info... Now I don't feel so lonely [emoji16]

 

[Dana Riddle]

I looked for the Radium data. Not in the first log book, but I came across time course PPFD depreciation of a Coralife 10,000K metal halide lamp. Lamp was new and burned in for 100 hours before the procedure began. The lamp lost about 75% of its output in a matter of weeks. I did not have a spectrometer at that time, but crudely determined spectral depreciation with cutoff filters from Edmund Scientific. The lamp lost 76% of its blue output. I would expect the loss to be roughly the same in the Radium. In a nutshell, high Kelvin MH lamps are notorious for quickly losing output.

 

[jda]

Radium are not made to be running on electronic ballasts. m80 is their spec. Not even HQI or Super Lumens will drive them to spec - better, but not to spec.

When I measure bulbs right before I change them, the new ones, after a year, are usually about 15% more PAR. This falls off in about 2-3 months. For me, using only spec ballasts on all bulbs, after the initial 2-3 month drop off, they stay pretty steady. This study kinda says the same thing:
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2007-04/ac/index.php

I have no idea about ARO ballasts. Be on the look out for some good equipment. I just purchased a pair of PFO m80 and a pair of pendants last week on eBay for $108.XX. I do not really need them, but m80 are like gold to us MH guys, so I buy them. There are deals out there. I go to eBay, search for Metal Halide, click on Pet Supplies and then used. Eventually, stuff comes along.

If you need to try a cheap fix, bend that reflector so that it is parabolic and goes down a few inches past the bulb. It looks like half of the output from the bulb goes off to the sides and never even gets into the tank.

 

[Knapp870]

@jda @alton I'm actually seeing numbers more in line with my bulbs than you referenced on Sanjays article here...

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2007-04/jb/index.php

Are you sure 1100+ isn't lux or something ?