DIY sump question

[luapinicap]

Good evening everyone!

I’m starting by sump build using a 40 gallon breeder. I plan on a Red Sea roller mat and an algae scrubber. No skimmer or fuge. I have a 100 gallon innovative marine ext.

I was going to go do baffles but I have read here that there could be some issues with evaporation and the ATO with such a big area and that my salinity will be more stable if I had a return chamber to manage my ATO sensor.

That being said if I do put in just one baffle at the end any recommendation how tall it should be? I can’t find an adjustable baffles sold on their own. I really don’t want to put something in just to realize it’s wrong because this is my first sump and I didn’t think of that.

Also maybe I don’t completely understand how sumps work but I don’t necessarily want a waterfall over a baffle that sounds like it would be noisy.

so hoping to tap into the knowledge here!

thank you for your time!!

 

[Timfish]

I would just use the 40 breeder as is without any dividers or baffles and I wouldn't use any mechanical filtration. If you want to use cheato you can make a flow through box with eggcrate and tie wraps.

 

[Chrisv.]

I always ran my diy 40 breeder with baffles that separate the return pump from the rest of the sump. The reason to do this (and I really do think it's essential) is that it keeps the main body of your sump at a constant water level. Your ATO sensor is in the return section, which is the only area where the water depth changes due to evaporation.

How deep you make the sump is up to you, and is determined by how deep you need for your various tank equipment, and by the total volume that will drain from your tank when the power is cut.

Your sump water level needs to be deep enough for your protein skimmer to work, and shallow enough that when you have a power outage, the volume of water that drains from the main tank into the sump (the water that is above the teeth of the overflow while the return pump is running) can all drain into the sump without flooding your house.

 

[ZombieEngineer]

Just get one of these or something similar and then it will be adjustable and look professional.

40 Gallon Breeder Sump Baffle Kit

The Fiji Cube Sump Baffle Kit is the premier option for creating a custom, economical sump for your reef without the high cost typically associated with having one fabricated for you. These Baffle kits are made to fit a number of common aquarium sizes and include all of the necessary components...

www.bulkreefsupply.com

 

[Chrisv.]

Just get one of these

40 Gallon Breeder Sump Baffle Kit

The Fiji Cube Sump Baffle Kit is the premier option for creating a custom, economical sump for your reef without the high cost typically associated with having one fabricated for you. These Baffle kits are made to fit a number of common aquarium sizes and include all of the necessary components...

www.bulkreefsupply.com

But two panes of glass costs like $17!

 

[Rtaylor]

The baffle just needs to be at least 1-2” shorter than you plan to keep the water level in the main part of the sump. You can leave a gap below the baffle for water to flow through instead of over the top.

 

[luapinicap]

The baffle just needs to be at least 1-2” shorter than you plan to keep the water level in the main part of the sump. You can leave a gap below the baffle for water to flow through instead of over the top.

I appreciate the answers and response. Sorry maybe I just don’t understand how the flow works but If I took a piece of glass and left 3/4 of an inch opening on the bottom, why would the last chamber be lower then the area before? Wouldn’t it just push water underneath until they were even?

 

[Rtaylor]

It will fill to the height of the baffle. If it goes above that level the sump is over-filled. You should ideally put 2 baffles close together. The first will be the height of the main part of the sump, the second a couple inches lowers and about 1/2”-1” away from the first, it also works as a bubble trap. Have the first go under the baffle and the second over the top.

 

[luapinicap]

But two panes of glass costs like $17!

Yea I’m not looking to spend over 100 just for the last piece. I don’t need the socks or the center because of my roller. I got plenty of other things to spend a 100 dollars on

 

[X-37B]

I run 2 40 breeder systems with no baffles. I use Tunze ato's and it handles evaporation just fine.
I run one on my 45 frag system.
My build thread on my 120 shows the system.
For the way you run your sump a no baffle system would be very easy to maintain.

 

[luapinicap]

It will fill to the height of the baffle. If it goes above that level the sump is over-filled. You should ideally put 2 baffles close together. The first will be the height of the main part of the sump, the second a couple inches lowers and about 1/2”-1” away from the first, it also works as a bubble trap. Have the first go under the baffle and the second over the top.

O that makes sense ok I’ll try to come up with something for that. If water level isn’t a concern other than my return pump not going dry, do I just do as much water as I can that will also leave enough room to support a power outage? Isn’t more water better?

 

[luapinicap]

I run 2 40 breeder systems with no baffles. I use Tunze ato's and it handles evaporation just fine.
I run one on my 45 frag system.
My build thread on my 120 shows the system.
For the way you run your sump a no baffle system would be very easy to maintain.

I appreciate it! I think I’m going to lean that way. I got a Neptune ATO and I think that will be ok

 

[luapinicap]

I appreciate it! I think I’m going to lean that way. I got a Neptune ATO and I think that will be ok

Now I need to decide if I should run an in sump algae scrubber like ice cap has or an external one. Do you think there’s any pros or cons? I plan to run it off a manifold and I’ll have more then enough room in my sump.

 

[X-37B]

I appreciate it! I think I’m going to lean that way. I got a Neptune ATO and I think that will be ok

You will like it.
My 120 when I took it down.

 

[ZombieEngineer]

O that makes sense ok I’ll try to come up with something for that. If water level isn’t a concern other than my return pump not going dry, do I just do as much water as I can that will also leave enough room to support a power outage? Isn’t more water better?

You probably want a bubble trap to seperate the return. Will also dpuble as a refugium or skimmer chamber when you decide later you want one of those. Between 1-3% variation in salinity due to water level change 1/4 min to 1" (1/2" typical) over an 18 x 36 area. If your return chamber is 6 × 18, you cut that down to less than .25% for typical 1/2" variation.

 

[X-37B]

Now I need to decide if I should run an in sump algae scrubber like ice cap has or an external one. Do you think there’s any pros or cons? I plan to run it off a manifold and I’ll have more then enough room in my sump.

I would do an in sump one.
Just set it in an area that make it easy to service.

 

[gbru316]

O that makes sense ok I’ll try to come up with something for that. If water level isn’t a concern other than my return pump not going dry, do I just do as much water as I can that will also leave enough room to support a power outage? Isn’t more water better?

But that's not the only concern. The smaller area your return pump is in, the more evaporation affects water level. Which means, less evaporation is needed to turn on your ATO and top off your tank.

This has the benefit of stability. Because the smaller fluctuations in the evap/top off cycle that come with having a smaller return pump area mean that your water chemistry is more stable. Smaller swings in SG, Alk, Ca, Mg, etc. Does this matter? For a softy tank or FOWLR, probably not. But for LPS and certainly SPS, it absolutely matters. My current tank -- which is intended to be SPS dominant, loses only about a cup of water to evap before it gets replenished. Total system volume is about 55 gallons. My parameters fluctuate by about 0.1% during every cycle. If I used the entire 20L as a single chamber sump, I'd lose about a gallon before the ATO would top off, which means parameters would fluctuate by 2% every cycle. Doesn't sound like much, does it? Consider, though, that the tank would be constantly bouncing between 34.3 and 35 ppt salinity. Or 1280 and 1300 Mg. Or 430 and 440 Ca (...etc). All within acceptable ranges, but far from perfectly stable.

I always try to design my sumps not only for my current plans, but I think ahead to what I could potentially want to add in the future so I don't have to drain and rebuild. You said you don't plan on running a skimmer. Well, ok. But what if you want to add one down the road? You might as well make a constant height chamber in your sump. It's cheap to do, and it won't hurt anything if you never need it. But it'll be much harder to add it later. Or, you could use it for a 'fuge later on. Or you could throw a reactor or two in there (which don't require constant water level, but it won't hurt).


For your situation, I'd put the roller in the first chamber, have a constant level 2nd chamber taking up the bulk of the sump, then a small 3rd chamber -- maybe 5-6" at the opposite end of the tank as the roller.

 

[X-37B]

But that's not the only concern. The smaller area your return pump is in, the more evaporation affects water level. Which means, less evaporation is needed to turn on your ATO and top off your tank.

This has the benefit of stability. Because the smaller fluctuations in the evap/top off cycle that come with having a smaller return pump area mean that your water chemistry is more stable. Smaller swings in SG, Alk, Ca, Mg, etc. Does this matter? For a softy tank or FOWLR, probably not. But for LPS and certainly SPS, it absolutely matters.

I always try to design my sumps not only for my current plans, but I think ahead to what I could potentially want to add in the future so I don't have to drain and rebuild. You said you don't plan on running a skimmer. Well, ok. But what if you want to add one down the road? You might as well make a constant height chamber in your sump. It's cheap to do, and it won't hurt anything if you never need it. But it'll be much harder to add it later. Or, you could use it for a 'fuge later on. Or you could throw a reactor or two in there (which don't require constant water level, but it won't hurt).


For your situation, I'd put the roller in the first chamber, have a constant level 2nd chamber taking up the bulk of the sump, then a small 3rd chamber -- maybe 5-6" at the opposite end of the tank as the roller.

Its easier with no baffles. The water level is not affected with any good ato.
Its makes for a very stable system.

 

[gbru316]

Its easier with no baffles. The water level is not affected with any good ato.
Its makes for a very stable system.

ATO require water to evaporate to turn on.

which means water level needs to change.

the larger the area of the container being held constant, the larger change is required before the sensor registers it that change. That’s not up for debate.

The question OP needs to answer is how much stability they need.

 

[ZombieEngineer]

Its easier with no baffles. The water level is not affected with any good ato.
Its makes for a very stable system.

The best ATOs have 1% salinity variation on this size sump with no baffle. Most "good" ATOs vary 2% and under failure conditions more like 3-5% (ie main float/optical worked then failed the next cycle so the backup float/optical switch or valve caught it). Not good for SPS tanks.