DIY Trace liquid: need help on formula

[acro_lover]

Thanks a lot @Randy Holmes-Farley. Really appreciate your help as always. Happy Reefkeeping:)

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Thanks a lot @Randy Holmes-Farley. Really appreciate your help as always. Happy Reefkeeping:)

You're welcome!

Happy reefing :)

 

[acro_lover]

Hi @Randy Holmes-Farley , can i please ask one more question. I would like to start dosing selenium and red your post about selenomethionine being preferred over sodium selenite.
I found this product:

Selenomethionine, MedChemExpress 500 mg | Buy Online | Medchem Express | Fisher Scientific

Selenomethionine, MedChemExpress from Medchem Express. Shop Selenomethionine, MedChemExpress at Fishersci.com. Available in 500 mg

www.fishersci.co.uk

Is my math correct?
Selenomethionine molar mass is 196.106 g/mol
Selenium atomic weight is 78.971
100% x 78.971/196.106= 40.26%

Selenomethionine is 40% selenium by weight.


Dissolving 1g in 1 L of ro/di gives 0.40 mg/mL Sr++

Adding 1 mL to 100 L of tank volume boosts selenium by 0.40 mg/100 L = 0.0040 mg/L (ppm) which should be 4ug/L

IS THE ABOVE CORRECT?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Hi @Randy Holmes-Farley , can i please ask one more question. I would like to start dosing selenium and red your post about selenomethionine being preferred over sodium selenite.
I found this product:

Selenomethionine, MedChemExpress 500 mg | Buy Online | Medchem Express | Fisher Scientific

Selenomethionine, MedChemExpress from Medchem Express. Shop Selenomethionine, MedChemExpress at Fishersci.com. Available in 500 mg

www.fishersci.co.uk

Is my math correct?
Selenomethionine molar mass is 196.106 g/mol
Selenium atomic weight is 78.971
100% x 78.971/196.106= 40.26%

Selenomethionine is 40% selenium by weight.


Dissolving 1g in 1 L of ro/di gives 0.40 mg/mL Sr++

Adding 1 mL to 100 L of tank volume boosts selenium by 0.40 mg/100 L = 0.0040 mg/L (ppm) which should be 4ug/L

IS THE ABOVE CORRECT?

Looks good. :)

 

[acro_lover]

I not trying to badmouth Andre, actually just the opposite- I am a big fan of the Moonshiner's method ( even though not using it yet). However, from chemistry point of view, can someone explain me how do you make a chemical element bioactive or more bio available???

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I not trying to badmouth Andre, actually just the opposite- I am a big fan of the Moonshiner's method ( even though not using it yet). However, from chemistry point of view, can someone explain me how do you make a chemical element bioactive or more bio available???

Sure. The chemical form is critical when assessing bioavailability (that is, how well organisms can use it). That's a flaw in the whole ICP-dose method since it ignores chemical form entirely.

Here's a very clear example:

Nitrogen gas from the air (N2) and nitrate and ammonia all contain nitrogen. But they have hugely different availability of organisms to use them as a source of N. That's a chemical form issue.

In terms of trace elements, there are some critical issues.

One is the oxidation state (say, ferrous Fe++ iron and ferric (Fe+++) iron.

A second is binding by organics. Many are strongly bound by organics in the water. Some bind elements so strongly that organisms cannot readily use them (strong chelators, for example).

Since no reefer has much useful info on what organics are present and how well they bind the uncertain chemical forms of trace elements present in the water, there's a whole lot of unknowns that some ICP folks choose to ignore.

That's a primary reason that I recommend tank observation to determine if trace elements are needed. That can be assisted by ICP, but ICP alone doesn't provide the ultimate answer.

I discuss these issues in these articles:

Organic Compounds in the Reef Aquarium by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com

Randy's Elements to Dose

In a previous article I discussed my thoughts on trace elements https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/randys-thoughts-on-trace-elements.951/ This article expands on that discussion by providing specific guidance for all elements one might dose. First...

www.reef2reef.com

a picture of a chelated copper ion from the first article:

Figure 1. A schematic of a copper ion (Cu++; shown in red) being chelated by
a naturally occurring humic acid (shown in green).

 

[acro_lover]

Sure. The chemical form is critical when assessing bioavailability (that is, how well organisms can use it). That's a flaw in the whole ICP-dose method since it ignores chemical form entirely.

Here's a very clear example:

Nitrogen gas from the air (N2) and nitrate and ammonia all contain nitrogen. But they have hugely different availability of organisms to use them as a source of N. That's a chemical form issue.

In terms of trace elements, there are some critical issues.

One is the oxidation state (say, ferrous Fe++ iron and ferric (Fe+++) iron.

A second is binding by organics. Many are strongly bound by organics in the water. Some bind elements so strongly that organisms cannot readily use them (strong chelators, for example).

Since no reefer has much useful info on what organics are present and how well they bind the uncertain chemical forms of trace elements present in the water, there's a whole lot of unknowns that some ICP folks choose to ignore.

That's a primary reason that I recommend tank observation to determine if trace elements are needed. That can be assisted by ICP, but ICP alone doesn't provide the ultimate answer.

I discuss these issues in these articles:

Organic Compounds in the Reef Aquarium by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com

Randy's Elements to Dose

In a previous article I discussed my thoughts on trace elements https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/randys-thoughts-on-trace-elements.951/ This article expands on that discussion by providing specific guidance for all elements one might dose. First...

www.reef2reef.com

a picture of a chelated copper ion from the first article:

Figure 1. A schematic of a copper ion (Cu++; shown in red) being chelated by
a naturally occurring humic acid (shown in green).

Sure. The chemical form is critical when assessing bioavailability (that is, how well organisms can use it). That's a flaw in the whole ICP-dose method since it ignores chemical form entirely.

Here's a very clear example:

Nitrogen gas from the air (N2) and nitrate and ammonia all contain nitrogen. But they have hugely different availability of organisms to use them as a source of N. That's a chemical form issue.

In terms of trace elements, there are some critical issues.

One is the oxidation state (say, ferrous Fe++ iron and ferric (Fe+++) iron.

A second is binding by organics. Many are strongly bound by organics in the water. Some bind elements so strongly that organisms cannot readily use them (strong chelators, for example).

Since no reefer has much useful info on what organics are present and how well they bind the uncertain chemical forms of trace elements present in the water, there's a whole lot of unknowns that some ICP folks choose to ignore.

That's a primary reason that I recommend tank observation to determine if trace elements are needed. That can be assisted by ICP, but ICP alone doesn't provide the ultimate answer.

I discuss these issues in these articles:

Organic Compounds in the Reef Aquarium by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com

Randy's Elements to Dose

In a previous article I discussed my thoughts on trace elements https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/randys-thoughts-on-trace-elements.951/ This article expands on that discussion by providing specific guidance for all elements one might dose. First...

www.reef2reef.com

a picture of a chelated copper ion from the first article:

Figure 1. A schematic of a copper ion (Cu++; shown in red) being chelated by
a naturally occurring humic acid (shown in green).

extremely detailed and full of valuable info replay. Thank you so much. It exceeded all my expectations and the great thing is that I have a lot to read now. Many thanks

 

[acro_lover]

Sure. The chemical form is critical when assessing bioavailability (that is, how well organisms can use it). That's a flaw in the whole ICP-dose method since it ignores chemical form entirely.

Here's a very clear example:

Nitrogen gas from the air (N2) and nitrate and ammonia all contain nitrogen. But they have hugely different availability of organisms to use them as a source of N. That's a chemical form issue.

In terms of trace elements, there are some critical issues.

One is the oxidation state (say, ferrous Fe++ iron and ferric (Fe+++) iron.

A second is binding by organics. Many are strongly bound by organics in the water. Some bind elements so strongly that organisms cannot readily use them (strong chelators, for example).

Since no reefer has much useful info on what organics are present and how well they bind the uncertain chemical forms of trace elements present in the water, there's a whole lot of unknowns that some ICP folks choose to ignore.

That's a primary reason that I recommend tank observation to determine if trace elements are needed. That can be assisted by ICP, but ICP alone doesn't provide the ultimate answer.

I discuss these issues in these articles:

Organic Compounds in the Reef Aquarium by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com

Randy's Elements to Dose

In a previous article I discussed my thoughts on trace elements https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/randys-thoughts-on-trace-elements.951/ This article expands on that discussion by providing specific guidance for all elements one might dose. First...

www.reef2reef.com

a picture of a chelated copper ion from the first article:

Figure 1. A schematic of a copper ion (Cu++; shown in red) being chelated by
a naturally occurring humic acid (shown in green).

I have carefully red the above articles. I will probably have to read them few more times as i am an electrical engineer:)
Am i right to assume that DOC binds to trace elements and then are being removed by the skimmer? Hense, to make trace elements more bio available, first step would be to reduce DOC? Is that correct? Lastly, how come that Andre from Moonshiner's adds something to the manganese and makes it more bio active??? I literally cant wrap my head around it? Or is he using different form of the manganese? But how do we know in what form the manganese is present in natural seawater and is it not changing forms?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I have carefully red the above articles. I will probably have to read them few more times as i am an electrical engineer:)
Am i right to assume that DOC binds to trace elements and then are being removed by the skimmer? Hense, to make trace elements more bio available, first step would be to reduce DOC? Is that correct? Lastly, how come that Andre from Moonshiner's adds something to the manganese and makes it more bio active??? I literally cant wrap my head around it? Or is he using different form of the manganese? But how do we know in what form the manganese is present in natural seawater and is it not changing forms?

Some (not all) trace elements bind to organics, such as DOC, POC, detritus, and even tissue surfaces. Not all doc binds these ions, and no organic binding at all can reduce solubility of some (such as ferric iron). Thus, the impact of total doc on trace element bioavailability is a complicated question.

The text you show claiming an additive with higher bioavailability is evidence that the Moonshine folks are also coming around to the idea that icp is not the whole story. I think the hobby in general would benefit from that knowledge, although icp companies may not since it throws some doubt on their icp only recommendations.

Since I do not know what chemical form of manganese the claim is being made about, or whether it is accurate, I can only speculate. But avoiding simple precipitation and binding to mineral and organic surfaces is certainly desirable, and to help that, the idea is to bind it strongly enough to reduce those effects while not holding it so strongly as to prevent organism uptake. For that reason, and others, I am using and recommending food grade manganese gluconate. Is it perfect? I have no idea. But it is quite inexpensive and serves the purpose just fine. I’m not sure that something else that might have higher bioavailability would be any sort of advantage.

 

[acro_lover]

Some (not all) trace elements bind to organics, such as DOC, POC, detritus, and even tissue surfaces. Not all doc binds these ions, and no organic binding at all can reduce solubility of some (such as ferric iron). Thus, the impact of total doc on trace element bioavailability is a complicated question.

The text you show claiming an additive with higher bioavailability is evidence that the Moonshine folks are also coming around to the idea that icp is not the whole story. I think the hobby in general would benefit from that knowledge, although icp companies may not since it throws some doubt on their icp only recommendations.

Since I do not know what chemical form of manganese the claim is being made about, or whether it is accurate, I can only speculate. But avoiding simple precipitation and binding to mineral and organic surfaces is certainly desirable, and to help that, the idea is to bind it strongly enough to reduce those effects while not holding it so strongly as to prevent organism uptake. For that reason, and others, I am using and recommending food grade manganese gluconate. Is it perfect? I have no idea. But it is quite inexpensive and serves the purpose just fine. I’m not sure that something else that might have higher bioavailability would be any sort of advantage.

Thank you so much for clarifying and sharing your thoughts. The reason i started digging into it was because i am dosing DIY Manganese (II) Chloride Tetrahydrate 98% and my icp's shows good level of manganese. However, when i saw that post from Andre- first thing that came to my mind was- " Is it possible that I am dosing manganese for the sake of it and my one isn't bio available? How do i make sure it is and how do i make it bio available? Now i understand that these are pretty difficult to answer questions. Would you advise i continue to dose the manganese chloride or its definitely better to swap it with gluconate? Thanks

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Thank you so much for clarifying and sharing your thoughts. The reason i started digging into it was because i am dosing DIY Manganese (II) Chloride Tetrahydrate 98% and my icp's shows good level of manganese. However, when i saw that post from Andre- first thing that came to my mind was- " Is it possible that I am dosing manganese for the sake of it and my one isn't bio available? How do i make sure it is and how do i make it bio available? Now i understand that these are pretty difficult to answer questions. Would you advise i continue to dose the manganese chloride or its definitely better to swap it with gluconate? Thanks

I’d just use what you have. :)

 

[acro_lover]

I’d just use what you have. :)

Thanks a lot.

This is another interesting one from Andre that made me think about lots of things. I should have done chemistry not electrical engineering :) Its a great extension of the hobby to learn all this. Its becoming more and more interesting subject for me. I dont like blindly doing stuff cause someone says so.

@Randy Holmes-Farley is there any article/ book you can suggest reading about the oxydation stages and learn when certain chemicals become toxic as per the post bellow from Andre?
For those of us that mix their own DIY elements (and thank you for helping us with these), is it actually better to use distilled water or not worth the effort?
Lastly, do you need we should use stabilisers, is there any material that you can suggest reading about stabilizing different chemicals or we should just aim to keep them as concentrated as possible to avoid bacterial growth? And how we do we whats considered low and whats considered high concentration?

I am copying and pasting it here:



"Reef Moonshiner's products cannot be mixed with each other into combined solutions!
If you even can mix elements with each other depends on the Product Brands raw materials used and if they have been chosen to be chemically compatible.
Reef Moonshiners uses a high complex variety of raw chemicals for maximized Reef compatibility and that unfortunately does not allow mixing them.
Also there is quite some consideration on the smart use of less harmful stabilizer and preservatives used in each RM element, with the focus on the Product to be long term suitable for a Full Synthetic Reefing method.
Other brands products may take into account and require water changes in order to export chemical compounds that are not filtered, absorbed or consumed by any media or biochemical process.
DO NOT listen too much to some recent individuals that suggested to mix elements regardless! That is not a smart statement from someone who doesn't even know what all the vendors on the market are using in their products.

Here is another copy and paste on mixing and dilution, interesting read for many:
Watering down elements (further dilution)
Here are a few things you should know. All elements as soon are watered down will have the risk to immediately start to oxidize into other stages.
Yes, there is not supposed to be anything left in RODI water, however the acids and many other factors come into the play when watering down elements causing chemical reactions and oxidation processes.
RODI Water itself is by the way only to be used for making stock solutions, that are going to be used up relatively fast such as ALK, Calcium, Strontium, Potassium. For DIY stock solutions such as Nitrates and Nutrients, you should already go one level higher and use Distilled Water due to less microbiological contamination, you don’t want the creepy pathogens growing in your solution and at the end introduce Rapid Tissue Necrosis bacteria to dose into your tank while thinking you do something good to the tank. All Nitrate solutions are supposed to be discared as soon they become whitish but latest after 6 months. And Syringes should not touch the water to avoid bacterial contamination which will populate the bacteria inside the bottles rapidly if the environmental requirements are fulfilled such as temp etc.
So by saying that, you can further dilute the elements from Brightwell for sure.
Here are the Dont’s: Do not dilute the Reef Moonshiner elements, any Fluorides or Iodides as well not other brands that provide Trace elements. 2 aspects again, one is the Stability of the element itself in it’s carrier solution which is not all Water based. Some carrier solution are or partially Muriatic acids, sulfides, Chlorides and yes some are highly purified water enhanced with other stabilizing fluids. These carrier solutions and or fluids avoiding the oxidation into other stages, which some stages can be highly toxic. Chromium for example is stage 4, and will remain in stage 4 as long not mixed with water for example. If the stabilizer is below the required levels the Chromium 4 will worse case oxidize into stage 6-7 or worse stage 8. Chromium 8 is highly toxic then to any marine life and human. This is just an example, but other elements have a similar problem when not stabilized. Some elements will not be as harsh as Chromium into toxic levels, but will oxidize into stages where the element is not anymore bioavailable. That means bacteria or animals won’t take this up anymore and it will become a useless amount of element in the tank.
On the other side, certain elements are so high concentrated that they won’t need preservatives anymore, that’s is the reason of the high concentration. Microbacterial growth is inhibited or very slowly possible, hence the dilution would allow the fouling of elements with bacteria, worse case pathogenic bacteria and fungus of all kind.
So, don’t do the dilution of any Trace elements! It’s not worth the few bucks you may think you safe here.
Another problem is that you will need scientific scales to do dilutions into Gallons amounts to archieve a reasonable tolerance of the new concentration of the element in the solution itself. That is a complicated not well understood subject of algebra, correlated to “calculations for dilution”, many people screw up on.
The scale I use for example is $5-6k when on sale and is calibrated each time a solution will be prepared
Good news is, that the NANO/PUMP Solutions are available as well, especially for Nano tanks or Dosing Pumps, those are a great alternative, these daily elements are concentrated to require 1ml per 100G per day. So the math is super easy and most newer pumps are solid and accurate at 0.1ml increments.
Hope that helps."

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

The preservatives mentioned are presumably antimicrobial and/or antioxidants and antireductants (I may have just invented that word lol) to hold the chemicals in a particular oxidation state. Example: ferrous iron us vitamin C to keep it from air oxidizing to ferric iron, which is less soluble in the tank).

I don’t have any ready reference to supply on how to do all of these things.

 

[acro_lover]

The preservatives mentioned are presumably antimicrobial and/or antioxidants and antireductants (I may have just invented that word lol) to hold the chemicals in a particular oxidation state. Example: ferrous iron us vitamin C to keep it from air oxidizing to ferric iron, which is less soluble in the tank).

I don’t have any ready reference to supply on how to do all of these things.

Thanks for your reply. And do you think is better to use distilled water for our DIY traces or dont bother?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Thanks for your reply. And do you think is better to use distilled water for our DIY traces or dont bother?

I do not know that either is better than the other. :)

 

[acro_lover]

I do not know that either is better than the other. :)

Thank you,
i was going through your posts about phosphate dosing but did not calculation for Mono Sodium Phosphate. I tried to do it myself:

Mono Sodium Phosphate is 79% phosphate by weight.


Dissolving 1g in 1 L of ro/di gives 0.79 mg/mL
Adding 1 mL to 100 L of tank volume boosts phosphate by 0.79 mg/100 L = 0.0079 mg/L (ppm) 0.0079 ppm

10 gr added to 1L of it contains 7900mg of phosphate

1ml raises 100L by 0.079 ppm

Does this look correct to you?

 

[Ukranian reefer]

Thanks for your reply. And do you think is better to use distilled water for our DIY traces or dont bother?

@Hans-Werner whats your opinion on this? I am very curious to know if dissolving diy trace elements is better done in distilled or to water?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Thank you,
i was going through your posts about phosphate dosing but did not calculation for Mono Sodium Phosphate. I tried to do it myself:

Mono Sodium Phosphate is 79% phosphate by weight.


Dissolving 1g in 1 L of ro/di gives 0.79 mg/mL
Adding 1 mL to 100 L of tank volume boosts phosphate by 0.79 mg/100 L = 0.0079 mg/L (ppm) 0.0079 ppm

10 gr added to 1L of it contains 7900mg of phosphate

1ml raises 100L by 0.079 ppm

Does this look correct to you?

Yes, that looks correct. :)

 

[acro_lover]

Yes, that looks correct. :)

Thank you so much for all your help. Happy Reefkeeping!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Thank you so much for all your help. Happy Reefkeeping!

You’re welcome.

Happy Reefing. :)