Do we know what is in Bayer?

[Rob.D]

Hi Randy, there is a small group of us reefers that live in the middle TN and E. Tn area that over the past year or so have experienced RTN, STN, and general color loss of LPS and SPS corals....
now, these are not your run of the mill reefers or newbs.....we are all fairly well rounded reefers that maintain our systems and are generally a group of responsible reefkeepers.

On to my main question, I suspect that our use of Bayer insecticide used as our go to dip for corals might have a chemical that has been building up in our tanks for the past few years and now is at a saturation point, causing negative effects on our systems.

Is there any way to find out what is in Bayer?

Would a Triton test show any abnormalities that would point a finger at Bayer?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

From the MSDS, we can see the primary ingredients:

http://www.homedepot.com/catalog/pdfImages/18/1878a705-d1d0-483a-9f1f-b27350228f1a.pdf

SECTION 2. COMPOSITION/INFORMATION ON INGREDIENTS
Hazardous Component Name CAS-No. Average % by Weight
Imidacloprid 138261-41-3 0.15
beta-Cyfluthrin 68359-37-5 0.05
Wood dust


None of those things will show up in a Triton test as they are organic molecules. Could there be an inorganic contaminant in them that is a problem? Maybe. Something like copper.

But, IMO, it is more likely the compounds themselves, or their breakdown products are the concern.

The first one breaks down in a few hours or less in a lit tank (may stay longer in the dark), but what it breaks down into might still be a toxicity concern. Not sure how long the other stays in a reef tank environment.

The first one is very toxic to aqueous (such as mysid shrimp)invertebrates. The second one is described as "highly toxic to fish, invertebrates, and insects". Those seem a reasonable place to put suspected blame without needing to look further.

 

[143MPCo]

Randy, I noticed the revision date of the "homedepot" MSDS was dated 08/31/2005, did some digging and found an updated document...
I have had my own personal experiences with corals showing the same reported signs as noted above, have they made any changes to their formula that might be causing the issue?

http://www.kellysolutions.com/erene...Y_TO_SPREAD_GRANULES_9_23_2014_2_13_27_PM.pdf

 

[jasonandsarah]

Wouldn't carbon remove this? I have noticed problems in my tank when I receive multiple orders in a short period of time. I also use Bayer as my go to dip. I even lost a cleaner shrimp witch I'm 99% positive was from the bayer. After dipping and rinsing the frag I pot it in the tank and the nosy cleaner came over and started picking at the frag. A few mins later the cleaner was in the corner acting drunk and even let me reach in and scoop it up. Put it in the sump overnight but the next morning it was dead.
This was awhile ago and I've since started rinsing bayer dipped frags a lot more. I rinse each frag in tank water and then place them all in a larger container and continually squirt them with a turkey baster before placing in the tank. I haven't had any problems since.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Randy, I noticed the revision date of the "homedepot" MSDS was dated 08/31/2005, did some digging and found an updated document...
I have had my own personal experiences with corals showing the same reported signs as noted above, have they made any changes to their formula that might be causing the issue?

http://www.kellysolutions.com/erenewals/documentsubmit/KellyData\AK\pesticide\MSDS\72155\72155-31\72155-31_BAYER_ADVANCED_COMPLETE_BRAND_ANT_KILLER_PLUS_READY_TO_SPREAD_GRANULES_9_23_2014_2_13_27_PM.pdf

I don't see any important differences. :)

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Wouldn't carbon remove this? I have noticed problems in my tank when I receive multiple orders in a short period of time. I also use Bayer as my go to dip. I even lost a cleaner shrimp witch I'm 99% positive was from the bayer. After dipping and rinsing the frag I pot it in the tank and the nosy cleaner came over and started picking at the frag. A few mins later the cleaner was in the corner acting drunk and even let me reach in and scoop it up. Put it in the sump overnight but the next morning it was dead.
This was awhile ago and I've since started rinsing bayer dipped frags a lot more. I rinse each frag in tank water and then place them all in a larger container and continually squirt them with a turkey baster before placing in the tank. I haven't had any problems since.

That shrimp effect does seem likely due to the compounds.

Yes, both will bind to GAC and probably be skimmable as well. Whether those take it up fast enough relative to organism exposures, I couldn't say.

 

[ritter6788]

Following. I accidentally nuked my tank with Bayer a couple years ago when I was trying to get rid of AEFW. The residue killed my pods, crabs and shrimp for sure. 2 years later I still don't see any pods in my tank but crabs seem to be doing fine. I've had a tough run with my SPS recently and haven't been able to fully pin down why yet.

 

[Rob.D]

Wow, great input so far.....I'm going to pay a bit more attention to rinsing frags, although I'm not sure the potential risk is worth using Bayer.

 

[DiverDan]

This is where it is good practice to both dip and have a QT tank. Not feasible for some but this hobby is always a tug of war between multiple factors that influence coral health.

 

[Jlobes]

This is where it is good practice to both dip and have a QT tank. Not feasible for some but this hobby is always a tug of war between multiple factors that influence coral health.

always feasible. After years of going without, I payed the price. Everyone should have a proper QT or the ability to use one. Probably one of the most overlooked aspects of the hobby. safeguards and redundancy, easiest way to succeed in reefing

 

[DiverDan]

always feasible. After years of going without, I payed the price. Everyone should have a proper QT or the ability to use one. Probably one of the most overlooked aspects of the hobby. safeguards and redundancy, easiest way to succeed in reefing

Those with smaller systems or not as much available square footage of living space are the ones who suffer from difficulry of having a qt unfortunately

 

[143MPCo]

I'm not sure the potential risk is worth using Bayer.

I most admit that's how I feel and my concern also.

 

[fishmommy]

That is why anything I dip goes in a QT tank for at least overnight before it goes in the display. Even if it is just a bucket with a heater and airstone, something everyone can afford to do to mitigate the risk to your inverts.

 

[143MPCo]

@fishmommy I agree but, the OP original post also noted issues to "experienced RTN, STN, and general color loss of LPS and SPS corals" and I have personally experienced the same.

 

[fishmommy]

I have fried some smooth skinned sps with bayer....don't dip those anymore.

 

[Daniel@R2R]

Wow, great input so far.....I'm going to pay a bit more attention to rinsing frags, although I'm not sure the potential risk is worth using Bayer.

FWIW, I use 2 rinse containers so all my frags get rinsed twice.

 

[Diesel]

Interesting!
A lot can be said about this topic, not a whole lot can be done.
IMO, Dip, Rinse, Rinse, Rinse, Rinse, Rinse and Rinse again before QT.
I dipped a lot never had a bad experience.

 

[jasonandsarah]

Interesting!
A lot can be said about this topic, not a whole lot can be done.
IMO, Dip, Rinse, Rinse, Rinse, Rinse, Rinse and Rinse again before QT.
I dipped a lot never had a bad experience.

Since I started dipping and then rinsing at least twice, then I squirt with a turkey baster. I haven't had a problem at all. We'll except for red dragon that's my nemesis and I think it's mostly from dipping it. But nothing goes in my tank without a dip!
On the whole "idk if the risks outweighs the rewards" I personally think they are more then worth it. I don't ever want to kill any livestock but 1 cleaner shrimp in over a year of using bayer? That's pretty good to me VS AEFW or red bugs.
I always run carbon and I always wait to switch it out, before a big shipment especially. I guess I've always assumed that if any does make it back to the tank then the carbon will quickly eliminate it.

 

[CastAway]

Dipping tonight. Two rinses..

 

[hybridazn]

Very curious. I've been using bayer for a few years now and never had a problem with sps rtn'ing or any problems with other corals. I guess a good question to ask is how is the dip administered?ratio of bayer to water, time in dip and how well is it rinsed?