Does Prime actually "Detoxify" free ammonia, NH3?

[DrZoidburg]

How did Prime use cause a bacteria bloom? was it like dosing vinegar?

Maybe it does have a big carbon source in it.

 

[taricha]

I once caused a bacteria bloom because I overdosed prime to prevent ammonia.

How did Prime use cause a bacteria bloom? was it like dosing vinegar?

It seems prime can support bacterial growth.

(Inside of one of my old bottles of Prime)

 

[Miami Reef]

It seems prime can support bacterial growth.

(Inside of one of my old bottles of Prime)

What is that brown stuff?

 

[Dan_P]

It seems prime can support bacterial growth.

(Inside of one of my old bottles of Prime)

Love it!

 

[DrZoidburg]

It seems prime can support bacterial growth.

(Inside of one of my old bottles of Prime)

Adds to my suspicion that it contains vinyl polymers. A big carbon source..

 

[taricha]

What is that brown stuff?

Presumably bacterial clumps suspended in the bottle from me contaminating the Prime.

That certainly would support bacterial growth if it contained carbon and it wouldn't surprise me if it did, but I wonder if bacteria could use the sulfur compounds in the product instead of carbon.

 

[DrZoidburg]

Presumably bacterial clumps suspended in the bottle from me contaminating the Prime.

That certainly would support bacterial growth if it contained carbon and it wouldn't surprise me if it did, but I wonder if bacteria could use the sulfur compounds in the product instead of carbon.

Absolutely depending on which bacteria is in there. Some are obligate though. They will work in anaerobic/aerobic situations in different ways. A smell of rotten sulfur h2s gas could tell you this.

 

[Malcontent]

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Adds to my suspicion that it contains vinyl polymers. A big carbon source..

Is there any basis for this wild speculation?

As far as I know, there's no reason to think vinyl polymers are included and there is NO REASON to think bacteria in a tank can consume vinyl polymers in any reasonable time frame..

The all carbon backbone is generally not biodegradable, with a few special exceptions that are very slow to degrade, but will. Such as polyvinylalcohol.

Biodegradation of poly (vinyl alcohol) based materials

Poly(vinyl alcohol) (PVA) is recognized as one of the very few vinyl polymers soluble in water also susceptible of ultimate biodegradation in the pres…

www.sciencedirect.com

"Both homopolymers and copolymers of acrylic acid exhibit a high resistance to biological degradation. Consequently, these polymers can effectively accumulate in aquatic ecosystems"

"Poly(vinyl alcohol) (PVA) is recognized as one of the very few vinyl polymers soluble in water also susceptible of ultimate biodegradation in the presence of suitably acclimated microorganisms. "

"On the contrary, negligible assimilation of the polymer was detected in the presence of nonacclimated domestic sludge microorganisms."

 

[DrZoidburg]

@Randy Holmes-Farley Yes wild speculation. His bottle of prime was said to be 1-2 years old. In other thread I crudely tested erase-cl said it contains sulfonates. I believe this to be vinyl sulfonate. This and PVpyrroylidone is used in many brands. It would make sense that seachem uses it to.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

@Randy Holmes-Farley Yes wild speculation. His bottle of prime was said to be 1-2 years old. In other thread I crudely tested erase-cl said it contains sulfonates. I believe this to be vinyl sulfonate. This and PVpyrroylidone is used in many brands. It would make sense that seachem uses it to.

The SDS for this other product (erase-cl) does not list sulfonates. What is your reason to think it contains one?

NONE of the polymers you mentioned are biodegradeable. There's no reason to think they have any involvement in ammonia reduction.

 

[DrZoidburg]

The SDS for this other product (erase-cl) does not list sulfonates. What is your reason to think it contains one?

You know as well as I. In some cases sds will not list anything if proprietary. Especially for uses in non humans. Except hazard data, and saftey. They give you half the info right here.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

You know as well as I. In some cases sds will not list anything if proprietary. Especially for uses in non humans. Except hazard data, and saftey. They give you half the info right here.

Since that is an ammonia reducing product, there's no reason to think that it is anything other than the widely used aquarium ammonia reducing agent, hydroxymethanesulfonate:

Ammonia and the Reef Aquarium by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com

Treatments for Elevated Ammonia: Hydroxymethanesulfonate
Various types of compounds are used in commercial products to bind ammonia in marine aquaria. One is hydroxymethanesulfonate (HOCH2SO3-). It is a known ammonia binder16 patented for aquarium use by John F. Kuhns17 and sold as Amquel by Kordon and ClorAm-X by Reed Mariculture, among others.

Ammonia's reaction with hydroxymethanesulfonate is mechanistically complicated, possibly involving decomposition to formaldehyde and reformation to the product aminomethanesulfonate (shown below).16 The simplified overall reaction is believed to be:

NH3 + HOCH2SO3- --> H2NCH2SO3- + H2O

What ultimately happens to the aminomethanesulfonate in a marine or reef aquarium is not well established, but it does appear to be significantly less toxic than ammonia, and more than likely it is processed by bacteria into other compounds.

Marineland Bio-Safe claims to contain sodium hydroxymethanesulfinic acid (HOCH2SO2-). I do not know if that is a typographical error, or if Marineland really uses this slightly different compound.

Note: products containing hydroxymethanesulfonate hamper the ability to test for ammonia when using certain types of test kits (see above). Presumably, the H2NCH2SO3- formed is still reactive with the Nessler reagents, even though it is not ammonia.

 

[DrZoidburg]

@Randy Holmes-Farley If however it changes form, binds to carbon, or has other carbon impurities it could.

 

[DrZoidburg]

Since that is an ammonia reducing product, there's no reason to think that it is anything other than the widely used aquarium ammonia reducing agent, hydroxymethanesulfonate:

Ammonia and the Reef Aquarium by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com

Treatments for Elevated Ammonia: Hydroxymethanesulfonate
Various types of compounds are used in commercial products to bind ammonia in marine aquaria. One is hydroxymethanesulfonate (HOCH2SO3-). It is a known ammonia binder16 patented for aquarium use by John F. Kuhns17 and sold as Amquel by Kordon and ClorAm-X by Reed Mariculture, among others.

Ammonia's reaction with hydroxymethanesulfonate is mechanistically complicated, possibly involving decomposition to formaldehyde and reformation to the product aminomethanesulfonate (shown below).16 The simplified overall reaction is believed to be:

NH3 + HOCH2SO3- --> H2NCH2SO3- + H2O

What ultimately happens to the aminomethanesulfonate in a marine or reef aquarium is not well established, but it does appear to be significantly less toxic than ammonia, and more than likely it is processed by bacteria into other compounds.

Marineland Bio-Safe claims to contain sodium hydroxymethanesulfinic acid (HOCH2SO2-). I do not know if that is a typographical error, or if Marineland really uses this slightly different compound.

Note: products containing hydroxymethanesulfonate hamper the ability to test for ammonia when using certain types of test kits (see above). Presumably, the H2NCH2SO3- formed is still reactive with the Nessler reagents, even though it is not ammonia.

Yes but some saying reducer I don't think they actually mean it as a reducing agent. Also
@Malcontent Looking into this paper a little more. I have some doubts. Formalin has a low boiling points and low density. Plus it may not be cost effective, and makes X compounds (wont mention). Many more reasons this would not be good. Could test this for formalin/aldehydes though. @Randy Holmes-Farley Rongalite mentioned in other thread density too high, melting point low, but boiling points very high. Ph high also. I don't think this would act same way were seeing. Has anyone actually tested density, and ph of prime?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

@Randy Holmes-Farley If however it changes form, binds to carbon, or has other carbon impurities it could.

Could be a carbon source for bacterial growth?

You were invoking organic sulfonates (and suggesting nonbiodegreadable sulfonates )to be a carbon source so that one might try to explain how a different product that MIGHT contain it might reduce ammonia.

But obviously that isn't necessary as the chemical itself reacts with ammonia.

 

[DrZoidburg]

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23342944/ says aerobic is not likely occurring without changes, but inside a bottle for 1-2 years is anaerobic and could have bacterial contamination.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Rongalite mentioned in other thread density too high, melting point low, but boiling points very high. Ph high also. I don't think this would act same way were seeing. Has anyone actually tested density, and ph of prime?

It's a water solution, not a solid.

Rongalite is the hydromethanesufonate I mentioned above, the widely used ammonia reducing agent I mentioned above. When I say reducing, i mean concentration reducing, not chemical oxidation state reducing, which is not happening to ammonia.

 

[DrZoidburg]

It's a water solution, not a solid.

Rongalite is the hydromethanesufonate I mentioned above, the widely used ammonia reducing agent I mentioned above. When I say reducing, i mean concentration reducing, not chemical oxidation state reducing, which is not happening to ammonia.

Yes I know what it is. The water solution would still probably have a higher boiling point, and a higher density than water. If example 30% solution of VS is upwards of 1.29g/ml, and a boiling point less than water. I found that while not using a thermometer erase-cl it was seemingly lower than water. Also unnoted that it seemed to have 2 boiling points. It could rule rongalite out if someone tests this on prime. I agree reducing chemically ammonia at home is not happening.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23342944/ says aerobic is not likely occurring without changes, but inside a bottle for 1-2 years is anaerobic and could have bacterial contamination.

Wild speculation that isn't even staying on point. This is not, IMO, a useful discussion.

Polyvinylpyrrolidione is not biodegradable in any reasonable time frame and is not acting as a organic carbon source in Prime (where you do not even know it to be present) so that bacteria growth after adding it reduces ammonia.

Your link says:
"Polyvinylpyrrolidone (PVP) is a frequently used polymer in the pharmaceutical and foodstuff industries. Because it is not subject to metabolic changes and is virtually nondegradable, trace concentrations of PVP are often found in community wastewaters."