Does Prime actually "Detoxify" free ammonia, NH3?

Dan_P

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No response on this in two weeks.

I sent this email and got (automated) confirmation that it was recieved on 10/2. And another (automated) confirmation three days later "Sorry for the delay..." etc.
But nothing else. So no enlightening discussions with seachem techs to share.
Still interested.

By the way, I am in the process of validating the Seachem Alert film to detect NH3 reduction with ClorAm-X, another dechlorinator and ammonia consuming chemical. I have patent data on how it is supposed to perform. If I can reproduce that, the film is “validated”. Nothing to report yet. I will also validate the Seneye and the Pacific Sentry films. When that is done, I will attempt to detect Prime ammonia reduction activity.
 

MnFish1

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No response on this in two weeks.

I sent this email and got (automated) confirmation that it was recieved on 10/2. And another (automated) confirmation three days later "Sorry for the delay..." etc.
But nothing else. So no enlightening discussions with seachem techs to share.
Call them
 

ingchr1

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"Binding" ammonia does not have any clear definition, so it is not possible to answer the question.

IF you tell me what you mean by bind, I'll answer the questions.

FWIW, I know of materials that will "bind" ammonia/ammonium and reduce the toxicity (e.g., certain zeolites), and others that will bind ammonia and not reduce the toxicity (say, acetate, where the binding is simple ionic binding) that will not end up appreciably reducing free ammonia. .

Bind as used by Seachem.

Screenshot_20211016-170259_Edge.jpg
 

ingchr1

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Unfortunately, the term "bind" isn't any more meaningful when Seachem writes it than when you do. :)
I see. I was trying to ask questions that I thought were directly related to the task at hand "Does Prime actually detoxify free ammonia NH3". Seachem states it "binds", that's why my questions used the term bind. I will not ask questions in the future, as they appear to have no meaning.
 
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taricha

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Does Prime actually detoxify free ammonia NH3". Seachem states it "binds", that's why my questions used the term bind.
To expand on Randy's point about the Seachem description being too vague to be meaningful...
Seachem's literal description could just as easily be applied if it did nothing at all to ammonia except lower pH.

Does a pH drop "bind" NH3? Yes, into NH4+
Is it detoxified? Yes, NH4+ is pretty much harmless.
Is it still available to nitrifiers? Yes, definitely.
So yes, even a few drops of acid could literally (narrowly) meet the description of what seachem says Prime does.
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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I see. I was trying to ask questions that I thought were directly related to the task at hand "Does Prime actually detoxify free ammonia NH3". Seachem states it "binds", that's why my questions used the term bind. I will not ask questions in the future, as they appear to have no meaning.

I'm not trying to discourage questions. That's the whole purpose of this forum. :)

Unfortunately, Seachem does not give sufficient info to say anything particularly useful about how Prime works.
 

Dan_P

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I see. I was trying to ask questions that I thought were directly related to the task at hand "Does Prime actually detoxify free ammonia NH3". Seachem states it "binds", that's why my questions used the term bind. I will not ask questions in the future, as they appear to have no meaning.
I vote ”don’t give up asking questions” :)
 

EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal

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Nope. Only chlorine and chloramine.
It actually only removes chlorine... Chloramine is chlorine plus ammonia. If you have chloramines and you use prime, the treated water will have some amount of ammonia (even if there was none in the water already), although possibly not enough to harm anything.
 

Malcontent

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It actually only removes chlorine... Chloramine is chlorine plus ammonia. If you have chloramines and you use prime, the treated water will have some amount of ammonia (even if there was none in the water already), although possibly not enough to harm anything.

Strange, when I run a combined chlorine test before and after adding dechlorinator, I can see it go to zero (assuming it's dosed correctly).
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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Strange, when I run a combined chlorine test before and after adding dechlorinator, I can see it go to zero (assuming it's dosed correctly).

That's consistent with what Eeyore said: that it deals with the chlorine part, but not the ammonia issue that remains.

I discuss chloramine here:

Chloramine and the Reef Aquarium - Reefkeeping.com

Removing Chloramine From Water: Chemical Reducing Agents

There are two primary ways to remove chloramine from tap water. The first is through the use of inorganic reducing agents such as thiosulfate. Thiosulfate (S2O3- -, which actually looks like -OSO2S-) is an inorganic chemical that is typically dissolved in water, usually as the sodium salt. When added to water containing chloramine, a reaction takes place, destroying the chloramine. The electrochemistry of sulfur compounds can be complicated, and different researchers report different products of this reaction (extrapolated from reactions with chlorine itself, not chloramine). The products have been suggested to include sulfate (SO4- - and HSO4-),10,14 elemental sulfur (S),10 and tetrathionate (S4O6- -),11-13 and may depend to some extent on the conditions, including the pH and the relative amounts of compounds present. John F. Kuhns (inventor of Amquel below) has indicated that he believes that the reaction resulting in sulfate is the most frequently observed. The reaction for this process is shown below:

S2O3-- + 4NH2Cl + 5H2O --> 2SO4-- + 2H+ + 4HCl + 4NH3

Thiosulfate is also equally suited to dechlorinating free chlorine in water, and it has gained wide use in marine and freshwater aquaria. Unfortunately, the ammonia that is produced as a result of the reaction is still toxic. Consequently, thiosulfate alone is not always adequate for eliminating toxicity from chloramine.

Other products, such as hydroxymethanesulfonate (HOCH2SO3-; a known ammonia binder15 patented for aquarium uses by John F. Kuhns16 (sold as Amquel by Kordon and ClorAm-X by Reed Mariculture, among others) can be used to treat chloraminated water because they both break down chloramine and bind up the ammonia.

The reaction of ammonia with hydroxymethanesulfonate is mechanistically complicated, possibly involving decomposition to formaldehyde and reformation to the product (aminomethanesulfonate; shown below).15 The simplified overall reaction is believed to be:

NH3 + HOCH2SO3- --> H2NCH2SO3- + H2O

Even more complicated is the reaction of hydroxymethanesulfonate with chloramine, or chlorine (as Cl2 or HOCl). In this case, the products that are formed have not been established.

So are these useful products? That is, do they eliminate all toxicity from chloramine and provide none of their own, either by themselves or through their degradation products? I cannot answer that question. Almost certainly, using them is better than not using them if there is chloramine in the water. Is the toxicity eliminated for even the most sensitive larval invertebrates? Again, I don't know. Without knowing what the degradation products are, or without detailed testing on a variety of very sensitive invertebrates, I don't know how one would conclude that they are satisfactory (or not). Maybe such tests exist, and if so, I'd be pleased to hear of them. In the end, my recommendation is to remove chlorine and chloramine in other ways, such as through an RO/DI system as described below.
 

EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal

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Other products, such as hydroxymethanesulfonate (HOCH2SO3-; a known ammonia binder15 patented for aquarium uses by John F. Kuhns16 (sold as Amquel by Kordon and ClorAm-X by Reed Mariculture, among others) can be used to treat chloraminated water because they both break down chloramine and bind up the ammonia.
Do these only bind ammonia for a short period of time?
 

MnFish1

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That's consistent with what Eeyore said: that it deals with the chlorine part, but not the ammonia issue that remains.

I discuss chloramine here:

Chloramine and the Reef Aquarium - Reefkeeping.com

Removing Chloramine From Water: Chemical Reducing Agents

There are two primary ways to remove chloramine from tap water. The first is through the use of inorganic reducing agents such as thiosulfate. Thiosulfate (S2O3- -, which actually looks like -OSO2S-) is an inorganic chemical that is typically dissolved in water, usually as the sodium salt. When added to water containing chloramine, a reaction takes place, destroying the chloramine. The electrochemistry of sulfur compounds can be complicated, and different researchers report different products of this reaction (extrapolated from reactions with chlorine itself, not chloramine). The products have been suggested to include sulfate (SO4- - and HSO4-),10,14 elemental sulfur (S),10 and tetrathionate (S4O6- -),11-13 and may depend to some extent on the conditions, including the pH and the relative amounts of compounds present. John F. Kuhns (inventor of Amquel below) has indicated that he believes that the reaction resulting in sulfate is the most frequently observed. The reaction for this process is shown below:

S2O3-- + 4NH2Cl + 5H2O --> 2SO4-- + 2H+ + 4HCl + 4NH3

Thiosulfate is also equally suited to dechlorinating free chlorine in water, and it has gained wide use in marine and freshwater aquaria. Unfortunately, the ammonia that is produced as a result of the reaction is still toxic. Consequently, thiosulfate alone is not always adequate for eliminating toxicity from chloramine.

Other products, such as hydroxymethanesulfonate (HOCH2SO3-; a known ammonia binder15 patented for aquarium uses by John F. Kuhns16 (sold as Amquel by Kordon and ClorAm-X by Reed Mariculture, among others) can be used to treat chloraminated water because they both break down chloramine and bind up the ammonia.

The reaction of ammonia with hydroxymethanesulfonate is mechanistically complicated, possibly involving decomposition to formaldehyde and reformation to the product (aminomethanesulfonate; shown below).15 The simplified overall reaction is believed to be:

NH3 + HOCH2SO3- --> H2NCH2SO3- + H2O

Even more complicated is the reaction of hydroxymethanesulfonate with chloramine, or chlorine (as Cl2 or HOCl). In this case, the products that are formed have not been established.

So are these useful products? That is, do they eliminate all toxicity from chloramine and provide none of their own, either by themselves or through their degradation products? I cannot answer that question. Almost certainly, using them is better than not using them if there is chloramine in the water. Is the toxicity eliminated for even the most sensitive larval invertebrates? Again, I don't know. Without knowing what the degradation products are, or without detailed testing on a variety of very sensitive invertebrates, I don't know how one would conclude that they are satisfactory (or not). Maybe such tests exist, and if so, I'd be pleased to hear of them. In the end, my recommendation is to remove chlorine and chloramine in other ways, such as through an RO/DI system as described below.
I would suggest there is no in vivo test - that says for organisms (fish, etc) - that Prime does not detoxify ammonia. Instead there are chemical tests that suggest that free ammonia is not reduced. This is a different question. IMHO - the real question is - How often is ammonia a real problem - as compared to not. I.e. there are multiple posters that have had fish in distress that have added prime that have improved. until there are in vivo tests - all anyone can say is that in the methods used by the experimenters no evidence was shown that prime reduced free ammonia in their testing method. No more no less.
 
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