Dosing a two-part product vs dosing Calcium Chloride and CaCO3 (Sodium Carbonate, Sodium Bicarbonate, & Sodium Borate)

[JSully_94]

Hi all,

I'm wondering what the benefits are of dosing a two-part product, such as Kent's Nano Reef parts A & B or Seachem's Reef Fusion 1 & 2, versus dosing just Calcium Chloride and CaCO3 (Sodium Carbonate, Sodium Bicarbonate, & Sodium Borate). I am currently dosing Fluval Sea's Calcium Chlordie and Fluval Sea's Alkalinity (CaCO3). Would moving to a two-part system be more beneficial? My magnesium levels seem to remain at or above desired levels with weekly water changes. The only thing that fluctuates are my calcium and alkalinity levels. What are your thoughts?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Hi all,

I'm wondering what the benefits are of dosing a two-part product, such as Kent's Nano Reef parts A & B or Seachem's Reef Fusion 1 & 2, versus dosing just Calcium Chloride and CaCO3 (Sodium Carbonate, Sodium Bicarbonate, & Sodium Borate). I am currently dosing Fluval Sea's Calcium Chlordie and Fluval Sea's Alkalinity (CaCO3). Would moving to a two-part system be more beneficial? My magnesium levels seem to remain at or above desired levels with weekly water changes. The only thing that fluctuates are my calcium and alkalinity levels. What are your thoughts?

Theoretically, a complete two part (say, ESV-B-ionic) is more "beneficial" than a DIY two/three part. In practice, it is not clear that folks see a difference.

I do think you should be dosing a third part, made from magnesium chloride and magnesium sulfate.

I describe the third part in my DIY two part recipe:

An Improved Do-it-Yourself Two-Part Calcium and Alkalinity Supplement System by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com

This compares many methods:

The Many Methods for Supplementing Calcium and Alkalinity - REEFEDITION

 

[JSully_94]

Theoretically, a complete two part (say, ESV-B-ionic) is more "beneficial" than a DIY two/three part. In practice, it is not clear that folks see a difference.

I do think you should be dosing a third part, made from magnesium chloride and magnesium sulfate.

I describe the third part in my DIY two part recipe:

An Improved Do-it-Yourself Two-Part Calcium and Alkalinity Supplement System by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com

This compares many methods:

The Many Methods for Supplementing Calcium and Alkalinity - REEFEDITION

If I continue with this DIY method and add the third part (magnesium), would I also need to add "trace elements"? I see most two part systems, like Kent's Nano Reef parts A & B, mention "minor elements". My only reservation would be, I wouldn't be able to measure these "trace elements" so I wouldn't know how much to add.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

If I continue with this DIY method and add the third part (magnesium), would I also need to add "trace elements"? I see most two part systems, like Kent's Nano Reef parts A & B, mention "minor elements". My only reservation would be, I wouldn't be able to measure these "trace elements" so I wouldn't know how much to add.

There are two issues.

Most two parts and Balling are not trace element supplements, even if thy include them. They have many elements in them to prevent the accumulation of sodium and chloride relative to everything else. But they do not provide trace elements in a quantity designed to offset consumption by organisms.

So even using a complete two part or Balling, a trace element supplement might be beneficial.

The first concept can be hard for folks to get their heads around. These products may even serve to lower the concentration of elements they contain.

Here's how that could work:

The Many Methods for Supplementing Calcium and Alkalinity - REEFEDITION

from it;

One issue that has confused some reef keepers, however, is the presence of trace elements. Assuming that these products are actually formulated with every ion such that a true natural seawater residue remained (let’s call this the “ideal” product), then it will necessarily contain such ions as copper. Since copper is elevated in some reef tanks, and is toxic to many invertebrates, reef keepers have wrongly criticized this method as adding more copper. That’s actually not what would happen. Since these products leave a natural seawater residue, and since copper may be elevated in concentration in many reef tanks relative to seawater, then using these “ideal” products will actually LOWER copper levels because when the increase in salinity is corrected, the copper will drop.

For example:

You have copper in your aquarium at 4 ppb and salinity of S=35.

You add a two part additive that over the course of a month raises salinity to S=36, and raises copper to 4.02 ppb.

Then you correct the salinity back to S=35 by diluting everything in the tank with fresh water, and you get a final copper concentration of 3.9 ppb.

Does this happen in real products and not “ideal” products? I have no idea. But the statement by manufacturers that it contains all ions in natural ratios, including copper, should not be viewed as a concern that it is exacerbating a heavy metal problem.

The rise in salinity of these products over time can be very roughly calculated, though there are several reasons why this calculation is only an estimate. For every 1000 meq of alkalinity added in this fashion (and the matching amount of calcium) these products will deliver on the order of 60 grams of other ions to the tank. In a tank with a low calcification demand (defined later to be 18.3 thousand meq of alkalinity per year in a 100 gallon tank (0.4 dKH/day)) this effect will raise the salinity by 3 ppt per year (compared to a normal salinity of S ~35). In a high demand tank (defined later to be 219 thousand meq of alkalinity per year in a 100 gallon tank (4.4 dKH/day)), the salinity will rise by 35 ppt in a year, or approximately doubling the salinity. Consequently, the salinity should be monitored closely in using these types of additives, especially in a tank with high calcification rates.

 

[chicago]

Randy.. do you see any issues when using kalkwasser with a reactor and two part dosing.. over the years I have employed one or all at the same time. Last week and past year and more I had all three running at the same time trying to keep slightly above NSW parameters.

My system is sps dominated. I recently ramped up my reactor (20 ml / hr to 40) and I am getting at 40ml/hr a dkh of 26.4. At 20 ml I was getting 38 dkh. I have turned off my two part and have allowed my parameters to fall a bit . They hovered at 7.5 dkh and 450 Calcium with all three on and in place. Now with doser off for past few days.. Currently at 7.1 and 440. The goal here is to try and limit the two part. Even with two part dosing and the apex fusion I was getting ups and downs on alk. I noticed if my alk went above 8 I would have issues with STN. Any pointers on the Kalkwasser with a reactor would be great. Not sure how much good it is doing on my system? Water volume is about 800 gallons.

 

[FLReefer101]

Hello Mr. Farley, I’m sure you get bombarded with questions all the time and I apologize in advance for bothering you with this.
I currently have been using Seachem 2 part 1-2 because of the simple ease. I’ve been reading your entire post about DIY 2 part you wrote which is amazing and I wish I understood the science behind reefing as you do.
I’m now gathering everything to start mixing my own 2 part but didn’t understand the Alk part.
The Alkalinity and Sulfate Part

Dissolve 282.8 g of sodium hydroxide (=7.07 moles of sodium hydroxide to match the 3.535 moles of sodium carbonate in alkalinity) plus 68.7 g of sodium sulfate in enough water to make a total volume of one gallon.

Can you explain this to me on how to mix it on a dummies version.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Hello Mr. Farley, I’m sure you get bombarded with questions all the time and I apologize in advance for bothering you with this.
I currently have been using Seachem 2 part 1-2 because of the simple ease. I’ve been reading your entire post about DIY 2 part you wrote which is amazing and I wish I understood the science behind reefing as you do.
I’m now gathering everything to start mixing my own 2 part but didn’t understand the Alk part.
The Alkalinity and Sulfate Part

Dissolve 282.8 g of sodium hydroxide (=7.07 moles of sodium hydroxide to match the 3.535 moles of sodium carbonate in alkalinity) plus 68.7 g of sodium sulfate in enough water to make a total volume of one gallon.

Can you explain this to me on how to mix it on a dummies version.

This is a recipe for the ultra high pH version. There are at least 4 recipes around. That one is maybe not the best first DIY two part to make unless you are certain you need a big pH boost (bigger than any commercial two part).

If you know this is what you want, you would weigh out 282.8 grams of sodium hydroxide, and add it to just under a gallon of RO/DI water. Stir to dissolve it, and finish by adding any extra water needed to reach 1 gallon total volume.

 

[FLReefer101]

This is a recipe for the ultra high pH version. There are at least 4 recipes around. That one is maybe not the best first DIY two part to make unless you are certain you need a big pH boost (bigger than any commercial two part).

If you know this is what you want, you would weigh out 282.8 grams of sodium hydroxide, and add it to just under a gallon of RO/DI water. Stir to dissolve it, and finish by adding any extra water needed to reach 1 gallon total volume.

My PH as of now is consistent 8.1 so I guess I would not need that. I do want to do the calcium with the magnesium. What do you recommend for the Alk DIY for beginners?

 

[Sdot]

This is a recipe for the ultra high pH version. There are at least 4 recipes around. That one is maybe not the best first DIY two part to make unless you are certain you need a big pH boost (bigger than any commercial two part).

If you know this is what you want, you would weigh out 282.8 grams of sodium hydroxide, and add it to just under a gallon of RO/DI water. Stir to dissolve it, and finish by adding any extra water needed to reach 1 gallon total volume.

Hey family! Great discussion. @Randy Holmes-Farley as a longtime user of ATI essentials Pro, I've mostly been happy with it and I love not having to do regular water changes. The concern I have is if I don't send off regular ICP tests to determine what elements are deficient, my corals don't look happy until I make whatever suggestions as listed on the ICP test. I created a spread sheet of all of my 2020 ICP tests and found my tank mainly consumes manganese and iodine along with a few others here and there. I was thinking about dosing a trace element mix to counter this, would like to get your thoughts on that.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

My PH as of now is consistent 8.1 so I guess I would not need that. I do want to do the calcium with the magnesium. What do you recommend for the Alk DIY for beginners?

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-02/rhf/index.php

BRS and other places sell the ingredients.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Hey family! Great discussion. @Randy Holmes-Farley as a longtime user of ATI essentials Pro, I've mostly been happy with it and I love not having to do regular water changes. The concern I have is if I don't send off regular ICP tests to determine what elements are deficient, my corals don't look happy until I make whatever suggestions as listed on the ICP test. I created a spread sheet of all of my 2020 ICP tests and found my tank mainly consumes manganese and iodine along with a few others here and there. I was thinking about dosing a trace element mix to counter this, would like to get your thoughts on that.

Manganese certainly depletes rapidly and is used by all organisms. Iodine also depletes rapidly, but I'm not sure it is useful.

That said, dosing both individually or as part of a mix is a fine plan.

 

[Sdot]

Manganese certainly depletes rapidly and is used by all organisms. Iodine also depletes rapidly, but I'm not sure it is useful.

That said, dosing both individually or as part of a mix is a fine plan.

So do you think I should just dose those items are dose a trace element elixir like Kent marine essential elements?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

So do you think I should just dose those items are dose a trace element elixir like Kent marine essential elements?

Icp suggests there are ok levels of other elements?

 

[FLReefer101]

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-02/rhf/index.php

BRS and other places sell the ingredients.

Thank you

 

[Sdot]

Icp suggests there are ok levels of other element?

Thanks again @Randy Holmes-Farley, of the 8 ICP tests conducted in 2020, the below spreadsheet details the avg dose and the number of times a specific element needed to be dosed per the icp test. Im also waiting the results of my latest icp test, sent 12/20/20.

Example of the 8 tests, vandium was deficient 5 of 8 tests and the recommended dose needed to bring back to seawater levels according to ATI.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thank you

You're welcome.

Good luck!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thanks again @Randy Holmes-Farley, of the 8 ICP tests conducted in 2020, the below spreadsheet details the avg dose and the number of times a specific element needed to be dosed per the icp test. Im also waiting the results of my latest icp test, sent 12/20/20.

Example of the 8 tests, vandium was deficient 5 of 8 tests and the recommended dose needed to bring back to seawater levels according to ATI.

Iron cannot be detected at natural levels, and I would also dose it. Given that assortment, I'd dose a standard trace element mix, but dosing them independently is fine, if expensive.

 

[Sdot]

Iron cannot be detected at natural levels, and I would also dose it. Given that assortment, I'd dose a standard trace element mix, but dosing them independently is fine, if expensive.

Thank you as always.

 

[Sdot]

Iron cannot be detected at natural levels, and I would also dose it. Given that assortment, I'd dose a standard trace element mix, but dosing them independently is fine, if expensive.

Do you have any that you would recommend personally?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Do you have any that you would recommend personally?

No, I never got around to dosing more than iron and silicate (DIY), but considered several others as possibly desirable based on being low in tests.