Dosing bleach

[56longroof]

You think it doesn't do what I suggested?

I'm 100% certain it does all of what I listed. Doesn't mean anyone should want to do it:

Some of these are toxic and can irritate tissue surfaces they encounter.

I totally believe it does what you posted. That was not the intention of my reply.

 

[Reefer Matt]

This is something that advanced Reefers may get away with for a while, and the rest might kill their tanks trying. Not something to be emulated, imo. Too much room for error and too little benefit to gain.

 

[Jimbo327]

So the benefit is no glass cleaning? .

 

[EricR]

If it really did all this we would all be doing it. I think @FishFan pretty much summed it up in his post.

I'd actually think we'd all NOT be doing it, based on bullet#s 2-4 in Randy's post# 19,,, unless I misinterpreted any of that.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I totally believe it does what you posted. That was not the intention of my reply.

Ok, I understand. :)

 

[BryanM]

I've heard some crazy things, but good grief.

 

[jackintheboxfish]

wow is there anything that cannot be dosed? Anyone try gasoline or mercury yet

 

[Reefer Matt]

wow is there anything that cannot be dosed? Anyone try gasoline or mercury yet

Only if it gets me out of water changes.

 

[EnterName]

wow is there anything that cannot be dosed? Anyone try gasoline or mercury yet

Gasoline would work as carbon dosing. In fact, it's a well documented phenomenon that bacteria can use compounds in gasoline as a carbon source:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0960852409010566

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4148322/

https://www.enviro.wiki/index.php?title=Monitored_Natural_Attenuation_(MNA)_of_Fuels

However ethanol seems to be preferred (https://iea-amf.org/content/fuel_information/ethanol/production) and obviously you would need to work with very small amounts to not pass the toxicity threshold for aquatic life so I wouldn't recommend it

Potassium permanganate is another obscure chemical to increase ORP with. It adds too much manganese and is a really strong oxidizer, but it's mentioned as applicable method in Julian Sprung's Algae - A problem solver guide booklet. If you have low ORP, a pure KMnO4 source and low manganese it would work without issues though but the effect will probably be negligible before you overdose manganese.

 

[jackintheboxfish]

Gasoline would work as carbon dosing. In fact, it's a well documented phenomenon that bacteria can use compounds in gasoline as a carbon source:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0960852409010566

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4148322/

https://www.enviro.wiki/index.php?title=Monitored_Natural_Attenuation_(MNA)_of_Fuels

However ethanol seems to be preferred (https://iea-amf.org/content/fuel_information/ethanol/production) and obviously you would need to work with very small amounts to not pass the toxicity threshold for aquatic life so I wouldn't recommend it

Potassium permanganate is another obscure chemical to increase ORP with. It adds too much manganese and is a really strong oxidizer, but it's mentioned as applicable method in Julian Sprung's Algae - A problem solver guide booklet. If you have low ORP, a pure KMnO4 source and low manganese it would work without issues though but the effect will probably be negligible before you overdose manganese.

learned something new today! Thanks @EnterName :)

 

[Fish Fan]

learned something new today! Thanks @EnterName :)

Please make sure that you're reading everything here thoroughly, and deciding for yourself.

This thread is much more of a theoretical discussion than a how-to, so please be careful when trying to implement anything you're reading about in this thread

 

[jackintheboxfish]

Please make sure that you're reading everything here thoroughly, and deciding for yourself.

This thread is much more of a theoretical discussion than a how-to, so please be careful when trying to implement anything you're reading about in this thread

Learning about these facts is super interesting to me. Prolly cuz I’m a nerd.

But yeah don’t think I’m going to dose bleach, gasoline, or KMnO4 into my tank any time soon if that’s what you are worried about :)

 

[mrmilky]

Hydrogen peroxide is perfect for reefs in small repeated doses it does a similar job to a uv sterilizer(look up the thread thats like 1200 pages long) it is great for ich management and some parasites. It also helps with diatoms and cyano aswell. But yeah look no the dose rates before trying yourself

 

[Jposch]

What does it supposedly do? In the other thread, RHF concluded that he would not dose bleach.

Yeah, well, paper vs actually doing aren't the same. Bleach is another oxidizer like peroxide, ozone or even UV.
Neither really replaces the other, but there is some overlap. I ozonate AND bleach.
Clean, pure bleach. I personally dose on a continuous drip. Added to kalkwasser top off. Initially, for dinos/dino toxins. Now, to be honest, there is less reason not to. Dissolved organics are the enemy. Ozone ans bleach help oxidize those compounds into things that can be skimmed out, or consumed by bacteria, coral, algae, etc. This SPS system gets the most bleach. A bit over 10ml/day for 300 net gallons. This is a VERY high dose. I use the Tandil brand from Aldi. If battling dinos, and the dino toxins, I highly recommend bleach. Typically, a dose 1/10th of that would be a better starting point.
Unlike peroxide, Bleach isn't as reactive toward sensitive coral like zoanthids and leathers. No immediate polyps closing. Alot of "on paper" stuff isn't the same in practice. This is why the scientific method isn't based solely on the theoretical. Try it. Don't try it. Your choice. Just know there are idiots out there dumping it in like it's a magic elixir.

 

[EnterName]

Dissolved organics are the enemy.

Is that settled already? What are the target levels (and what's the preferred measurement process)?

Ozone ans bleach help oxidize those compounds into things that can be skimmed out [...]

For ozone, yes. But bleach reacts differently as far as I know. Randy will be able to explain it much better or correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I understand ozone structurally modifies organics and some of them become more foam-active. Bleach on the other hand creates oxidized, chlorinated, and cleaved products that are sometimes even more hydrophilic (so potentially worse to skim out). Just because something oxidizes stuff doesn't mean it modifies the organics in the same way or makes them better to skim out. Chlorine seems to do much more to these organics than ozone and additionally you have unwanted chloramines, etc. in the water.

I'm not saying to change anything that has been working for you and I don't think a small amount of bleach is dangerous in reef tanks, but some proposed benefits are probably just a post hoc fallacy.

 

[Freenow54]

As I have stated before . I Like cleaning the glass manually. I now do it more often to lessen any negative effect of a large amount of it staying in the Tank. The primary reason for this is that my Vlamingi Tang gulps it down, I also have a net nearby to scoop any of it left in suspension. On my new tank I plan on using a scrubber . I did use it in my outdoor pond which has feeder Goldfish in it. My most mature ones a good 8 inches long now. Which survived me putting in about a cup of pure bleach by the way to control huge algae blooms. It ended up killing it but then I just had a huge amount of brown dead algae in the pond ,. Which may be happening in Aquariums where that is practiced , and probably is not as noticeable something no one commented on regarding negative effects. As to the pond I now use a garden rake and " Harvest " it. I get about 2 bushels every three months , just put it in the bushes behind the pond

 

[Jposch]

Is that settled already? What are the target levels (and what's the preferred measurement process)?


For ozone, yes. But bleach reacts differently as far as I know. Randy will be able to explain it much better or correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I understand ozone structurally modifies organics and some of them become more foam-active. Bleach on the other hand creates oxidized, chlorinated, and cleaved products that are sometimes even more hydrophilic (so potentially worse to skim out). Just because something oxidizes stuff doesn't mean it modifies the organics in the same way or makes them better to skim out. Chlorine seems to do much more to these organics than ozone and additionally you have unwanted chloramines, etc. in the water.

I'm not saying to change anything that has been working for you and I don't think a small amount of bleach is dangerous in reef tanks, but some proposed benefits are probably just a post hoc fallacy.

Literally, just try it. Stop this theoretic on papre crap. Take 1ml and add to a 300L aquarium. Use a syringe and squirt down thw skimmer neck. If the skimmer begins to pull alot more gunk? Bleach may be a good choice. Not "go crazy," but as if the skimmer is 2x as powerful. If nothing happens, then probably no point in dosing bleach.
There is such a high organic load in aquaria, a few ml of 6% sodium hypochlotite is insignificant.
I specifically said, ozone, bleach and peroxide are all unique oxidizers.
I dont need someone who's has 2 simple aquariums thier entire career to verify what I've actually done myself. The only major caveat is not unique ro bleach. It is the conversion of iodine to iodate. Just don't dose a high iodine trace element supplement.

 

[Jposch]

As I have stated before . I Like cleaning the glass manually. I now do it more often to lessen any negative effect of a large amount of it staying in the Tank. The primary reason for this is that my Vlamingi Tang gulps it down, I also have a net nearby to scoop any of it left in suspension. On my new tank I plan on using a scrubber . I did use it in my outdoor pond which has feeder Goldfish in it. My most mature ones a good 8 inches long now. Which survived me putting in about a cup of pure bleach by the way to control huge algae blooms. It ended up killing it but then I just had a huge amount of brown dead algae in the pond ,. Which may be happening in Aquariums where that is practiced , and probably is not as noticeable something no one commented on regarding negative effects. As to the pond I now use a garden rake and " Harvest " it. I get about 2 bushels every three months , just put it in the bushes behind the pond

Never added enough bleach to impact algae directly. I have seen a reduction in algae indirectly due to bleach enhancing skimming and assisting in organics removal. Ozone helps here a bit as well. Again, differently.

 

[EnterName]

Literally, just try it.

I have added bleach before to my tank to try it.

Stop this theoretic on papre crap.

No, I won't . When empirical observations don't match theory you learn that the topic isn't well enough understood to draw conclusions and the observations might be misguiding you.

We have so much post hoc attributions fueled by confirmation bias in this hobby, I don't think it is helping the community to keep adding more anecdotal "evidence" without proper controls and means of measurements. The amount of pseudoscience in this hobby is going rampant and I feel like wording things less authoritative when something isn't fully settled yet would help the community a lot.

The only major caveat is not unique ro bleach. It is the conversion of iodine to iodate.

Trace element availability will also be impacted by the higher oxidation state besides the previously mentioned chloramines and also some unwanted reactions with bromide. So I'm not sure iodate is the only major caveat.

I'm sure we will disagree on many of the points I have made, but as you can see I'm neither saying "never dose bleach" nor am I saying "bleach is beneficial". I feel like an honest "we don't know a lot about the stuff that is going on and it could be both" is a much healthier approach here until it's actually settled.

 

[56longroof]

As I have stated before . I Like cleaning the glass manually. I now do it more often to lessen any negative effect of a large amount of it staying in the Tank. The primary reason for this is that my Vlamingi Tang gulps it down, I also have a net nearby to scoop any of it left in suspension. On my new tank I plan on using a scrubber . I did use it in my outdoor pond which has feeder Goldfish in it. My most mature ones a good 8 inches long now. Which survived me putting in about a cup of pure bleach by the way to control huge algae blooms. It ended up killing it but then I just had a huge amount of brown dead algae in the pond ,. Which may be happening in Aquariums where that is practiced , and probably is not as noticeable something no one commented on regarding negative effects. As to the pond I now use a garden rake and " Harvest " it. I get about 2 bushels every three months , just put it in the bushes behind the pond

What kind of algea are you getting on the glass? Catching it seems like a wasted effort to me unless it bryopsis or hair algea.