Dosing Rubidium

[purp]

It's not easy to address this many claims, so stay with me. In times like these, I've grown weary of letting people make baseless assertions. While this is just reefing, this kind of either willful conning or lazy disinformation is currently getting people killed in the pandemic, so I feel compelled.

With respect to Aquavitro, it's Vitamin C with chlorella algae. The trace elements contained within were reported because they were part of the algae. They were not added specifically for an effect as far as I can tell. Beating the dead horse here, but their presence does not indicate necessity or benefit.

With respect to salt mixes, just because salt mixes contain trace elements does not mean they are beneficial and/or necessary. I'm not disputing that there is rubidium in the ocean. I'm disputing that maintaining a level of rubidium in a reef tank is necessary or beneficial. When do we start dosing deuterium to our tanks 1 atom at a time? Definitely present in the ocean, probably present in trace trace trace levels in coral. Doesn't mean we should dose it.

I have incredibly strong doubt that seachem is sourcing rubidium and adding it to their salt. I don't know this for sure, but it seems to me that the way manufacturers probably make salt is just to evaporate seawater and then correct for anything that doesn't easily redissolve.

I'm also not sure where he ever said "NOT" to increase copper or tin or silver? I pulled up his PDF document again out of curiosity, and searched for each of these in it. For silver it says "May be useful and enhancing on Coral tanks, will keep you guys updated". For tin, I actually see suggestions for supplementing it, but mentions in regards to his calculator: "Tin is not available yet for public and is in the testing phase." Lastly, for copper, it either says that it's provided by other things (food ,etc), or that it hasn't been experimented with enough. So I can't help but feel you're making some false claims about what he's actually suggesting.

And this is not because this is a selling product, there are other products such as Tin, Silver, Copper as individual products that did not make it to the Sales-Room simply because their effects as part of the method couldn't even convince me yet.
So it's not because it's driven by money, people who know me, know that ;-)

Right here is where he talks about not selling tin copper and silver because he isnt personally convinced of their efficacy.

Sorry - it is already invented - it is named enhanced air or Nitrox diving.

Sincerely Lasse

Cmon. Nitrox is increased O2/decreased nitrogen in diving air. Not added N2O.....If you're going to just google to disprove me, read past the second line.

As always, I would happily change my opinion if presented with any kind of substantive data.

 

[purp]

In the most highly cited paper regarding rubidium in the food chain: Campell et al, 1995 titled "Evidence for biomagnification of rubidium in freshwater and marine food webs " has this to say:

"The importance of Rb as an ultra trace essential element to humans and other biota has been the subject of conjecture, based on a study that demonstrated poor health of goats fed low-Rb (<0.28 mg·kg–1·day–1) diets relative to those fed high-Rb diets."

That's the primary citation from the review paper that Lasse posted.

I trust this peer reviewed and cited research more than the person trying to sell rubidium supplements. Call me crazy.

 

[User]

With this poll I did a try to get a picture over how many that have dosed rubidium and how the outcome had been. It is a way of collecting cases and experiences and for me - its the first stage if you want to investigate anything - collect material and do observations Its the way science develops many times - first observe - after that try to explain what´s happen with experiments and the collected knowledge that exist.

I have no idea if Rubidium have any benefits for corals or not - but if enough of people can show one or another experiences with it - it can get an idea if it is snake oil or if there is any form of substances in the claims. The doses suggested is in line with natural content in sea water - the risk that it should be unfavorable to corals are therefore rather low.

Yes - I tag @PSXerholic in this thread because I know that he have experiences with it. He also - like me - do not use regular WC, using regular ICP testing and try to adjust the water after these tests. I have run my aquarium more or less without regular WC for three years now. I use Triton Core 7 system and I compensate the rising salinity with maybe 0.5 l a day (change 0.5 l saltwater with 0.5 l RO water) Triton do not test for rubidium but after 3 years I suppose I have depleted all off it. I´m now slowly rise it to 0.1 ppm. My aquarium is well documented here on R2R (with pictures) and I will also document changes from now (if any)

In fact Rubidium have been suggested as a possible ultratrace element in a review from 1998

Here is the link to your lost article Andrew



Sorry - it is already invented - it is named enhanced air or Nitrox diving.

Sincerely Lasse

Not quite true though- nitrox is enriched for oxygen while reducing nitrogen, the gas responsible for ‘the bends’. People aren’t pumping laughing gas into scuba cylinders.

 

[User]

I’m also pretty sure arsenic is a micro trace element in seawater... and I’m not seeing anyone dosing that

if we are going to try to totally replicate the composition of natural seawater, are we going to start adding micro plastics and sewage too? These things have been found in pretty high concentrationa in many coral reefs- they even find micro plastics INSIDE animals, so they must be taking it up for a reason

the aim is to replicate the good elements in seawater, the things that contribute to the biochemistry and health of the organisms and the food chains. To do that, we need to know which ones are absolutely required, and which ones are incidental or even completely unimportant. Just because it’s found in trace amount, and incorporated into skeletons doesn’t make it beneficial.

 

[Casual_reefkeeping]

There is N2O in the air we breath, and it serves no biological purpose for humans. Do we put nitrous in oxygen tanks when me scuba dive ? That line of reasoning is not well founded.

You are aware that scuba (and scba) tanks aren't oxygen tanks correct? They are compressed breathing air tanks that contain whatever is in the air, including N2O, since that is what's natural. We don't remove it or supplement it. Dosing Rb would be to maintain natural levels, even if we are unsure of biological benefits, isn't our goal to replicate NSW as best as possible to provide a natural environment for our animals?

 

[purp]

You are aware that scuba (and scba) tanks aren't oxygen tanks correct? They are compressed breathing air tanks that contain whatever is in the air, including N2O, since that is what's natural. We don't remove it or supplement it. Dosing Rb would be to maintain natural levels, even if we are unsure of biological benefits, isn't our goal to replicate NSW as best as possible to provide a natural environment for our animals?

That’s my point exactly, and yes I understand that. Humans could thrive on scuba tanks without N2O and you wouldn’t add it into the tank because it serves no purpose for humans. Until contrary information is shown in corals, the same idea applies.

 

[User]

You are aware that scuba (and scba) tanks aren't oxygen tanks correct? They are compressed breathing air tanks that contain whatever is in the air, including N2O, since that is what's natural. We don't remove it or supplement it. Dosing Rb would be to maintain natural levels, even if we are unsure of biological benefits, isn't our goal to replicate NSW as best as possible to provide a natural environment for our animals?

True for recreational scuba

However- Once you get into technical- you really control the relative proportions of pure oxygen, nitrogen and helium in your mix. There’s even a mix called Heliox, which is just oxygen and helium. Because the presence of any other gasses in that mix could be fatal once you get to depths that push the partial pressure above atmospheric levels multiplied by a factor

Also- did you know that breathing pure oxygen at a depth of 19 feet or deeper will cause an immediately toxicity that results in a stroke? And that’s the gas that’s keeping us alive at the surface.

little tangent there maybe, but y’all can’t start talking scuba and not expect me to bore the **** out if you

 

[Lasse]

mon. Nitrox is increased O2/decreased nitrogen in diving air. Not added N2O.....If you're going to just google to disprove me, read past the second line.

Not quite true though- nitrox is enriched for oxygen while reducing nitrogen, the gas responsible for ‘the bends’. People aren’t pumping laughing gas into scuba cylinders.

My bad and a language miss.

I read

Do we put nitrous in oxygen tanks

And thought it was nitrogen put in oxygen because I know no person using oxygen tanks in Scuba - air tanks yes but not pure oxygen in scuba tanks.

And please - I want to know peoples own experiences with using Rubidium in reef tanks not anyones thoughts based on read materials. In a scientific way - we can´t say either because there have been no scientific studies on rubidium and corals at all. You can´t prove it - and you can´t exclude it. You can make assumptions based on other studies or common believes but you can´t prove true or wrong.

I do not think it is right to state that Rubidium has no biological role - the right statement is maybe more - For the moment - there is no known biological role for rubidium.

As an example - I have always been told and believed that cadmium has no positive biological role at all - but that´s not true today according to this source

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Casual_reefkeeping]

That’s my point exactly, and yes I understand that. Humans could thrive on scuba tanks without N2O and you wouldn’t add it into the tank because it serves no purpose for humans. Until contrary information is shown in corals, the same idea applies.

We're sorta in agreement, just applying it differently. Since it's not a known toxin and we don't know the definitive biological benefit, I see no reason to exclude it. since switching to a system that includes it I've definitely seen better coloration, but this changed my entire trace dosing, not just Rb. I can't attribute my success to rb alone, but I don't see a reason not to dose it.

 

[Casual_reefkeeping]

True for recreational scuba

However- Once you get into technical- you really control the relative proportions of pure oxygen, nitrogen and helium in your mix. There’s even a mix called Heliox, which is just oxygen and helium. Because the presence of any other gasses in that mix could be fatal once you get to depths that push the partial pressure above atmospheric levels multiplied by a factor

Also- did you know that breathing pure oxygen at a depth of 19 feet or deeper will cause an immediately toxicity that results in a stroke? And that’s the gas that’s keeping us alive at the surface.

little tangent there maybe, but y’all can’t start talking scuba and not expect me to bore the **** out if you

When I worked for a dive shop we did nitrox too, rarely for public safety diving though. Just once since we were checking a quarry that was unusually deep for our usual extended operations. But I've never worked with heliox. I'd imagine that's used in commercial operations.

 

[Lasse]

We're sorta in agreement, just applying it differently. Since it's not a known toxin and we don't know the definitive biological benefit, I see no reason to exclude it. since switching to a system that includes it I've definitely seen better coloration, but this changed my entire trace dosing, not just Rb. I can't attribute my success to rb alone, but I don't see a reason not to dose it.

In my case - the only change of dosing I will do now is Rubidium and I have some "target" species. I already dose Core 7, strontium, iodine, iron, vanadium and mangan on daily basis. After each Triton test - I rise suggested compounds. It will be a test if I can see anything just based on Rubidium. I will not dose on daily basis - only up to 0,1 ppm

Sincerely Lasse

 

[purp]

We're sorta in agreement, just applying it differently. Since it's not a known toxin and we don't know the definitive biological benefit, I see no reason to exclude it. since switching to a system that includes it I've definitely seen better coloration, but this changed my entire trace dosing, not just Rb. I can't attribute my success to rb alone, but I don't see a reason not to dose it.

Adding something with specious benefits that costs money would be reason enough for me.

 

[Xero]

It's not easy to address this many claims, so stay with me. In times like these, I've grown weary of letting people make baseless assertions. While this is just reefing, this kind of either willful conning or lazy disinformation is currently getting people killed in the pandemic, so I feel compelled.

With respect to Aquavitro, it's Vitamin C with chlorella algae. The trace elements contained within were reported because they were part of the algae. They were not added specifically for an effect as far as I can tell. Beating the dead horse here, but their presence does not indicate necessity or benefit.

With respect to salt mixes, just because salt mixes contain trace elements does not mean they are beneficial and/or necessary. I'm not disputing that there is rubidium in the ocean. I'm disputing that maintaining a level of rubidium in a reef tank is necessary or beneficial. When do we start dosing deuterium to our tanks 1 atom at a time? Definitely present in the ocean, probably present in trace trace trace levels in coral. Doesn't mean we should dose it.

I have incredibly strong doubt that seachem is sourcing rubidium and adding it to their salt. I don't know this for sure, but it seems to me that the way manufacturers probably make salt is just to evaporate seawater and then correct for anything that doesn't easily redissolve.

I was referring to instant ocean salt, not seachem/aquavitro salt. Although you seemed to have cherry picked just one example from the many I gave. And for that matter, aquavitro salt DOES contain rubidium. I even found a page that listed the analysis and compared numerous salts, every salt with an ingredients list that I found, had it listed.

https://www.aquavitro.com/salinity.php

Also, aquaforest sells it by itself too:
https://aquaforest.eu/en/product/rubidium/

If you aren't sure about something, maybe you shouldn't be making claims to the contrary with no evidence. I've been looking up and cross-referencing nearly everything I said to you from manufacturer's ingredients and product descriptions or MSDS. Weren't you the one just talking about the burden of proof?

Right here is where he talks about not selling tin copper and silver because he isnt personally convinced of their efficacy.

So, he doesn't want to sell it because he isn't convinced? If he was the great snake-oil salesman you claim him to be, why wouldn't he be selling them anyway?

You have a store that sells PDFs of your guides as well as supplements. It doesn’t matter what prompted you to start doing this, you have a financial interest in people believing that you a

I missed this little gem. All his PDF's are free for download, with the exception of one about coral colors. I don't generally pay for information, I'm cheap, and the only reason I was able to easily reference his PDF earlier is because I downloaded it, for free. All of this just makes me think you've never actually downloaded and looked through any of it.

 

[Tjm23slo]

To me reefing is an art mascarading as science. No one can tell what makes a coral really happy, but we can see with our eyes what we think makes corals a happy and produce what we want to see. Is a coral happier and healthier brown or highly fluorescent. Does it fluoresce more based on health or stress? Does rubidium make them have better health, higher stress or nothing, I don’t think any of us know this.

What I do know is that my corals are finally encrusting and grow I started RM in January. Nearly everything has gone from what some would say nearly dying to growing and recovering from aggressive corals. I had a Hydnophora wrap death web around and Anacropora. Over the next 4 days it beached white. 2 weeks later it’s has hints of green and polyps are starting to emerge from the Skelton.

Rubidium? barium? Bromine, fluorine? Or consistent structure RM give me. What is causing this recovery? I have no idea, all I know is that with all these elements ate slightly raised levels, my tank looks better and recovers faster than ever before.

whether Andres fill his bottles with Rodi water and resells then as elements or not, my tank looks way better today than in January before I started.

Rubidium or bust!!

 

[User]

When I worked for a dive shop we did nitrox too, rarely for public safety diving though. Just once since we were checking a quarry that was unusually deep for our usual extended operations. But I've never worked with heliox. I'd imagine that's used in commercial operations.

Commercial, mainly, yes

but technical below 250 feet also, although that’s been phased out with mixes using argon and staged decompression.

 

[PSXerholic]

I was referring to instant ocean salt, not seachem/aquavitro salt. Although you seemed to have cherry picked just one example from the many I gave. And for that matter, aquavitro salt DOES contain rubidium. I even found a page that listed the analysis and compared numerous salts, every salt with an ingredients list that I found, had it listed.

https://www.aquavitro.com/salinity.php

Also, aquaforest sells it by itself too:
https://aquaforest.eu/en/product/rubidium/

If you aren't sure about something, maybe you shouldn't be making claims to the contrary with no evidence. I've been looking up and cross-referencing nearly everything I said to you from manufacturer's ingredients and product descriptions or MSDS. Weren't you the one just talking about the burden of proof?



So, he doesn't want to sell it because he isn't convinced? If he was the great snake-oil salesman you claim him to be, why wouldn't he be selling them anyway?



I missed this little gem. All his PDF's are free for download, with the exception of one about coral colors. I don't generally pay for information, I'm cheap, and the only reason I was able to easily reference his PDF earlier is because I downloaded it, for free. All of this just makes me think you've never actually downloaded and looked through any of it.

Look at this, Aquaforest does have it now too, didn't know they also make now Rubidium.

Let's see, they need with their "concentrated Rubidium", 1ml to get 0.002mg/L on a 100Liter water volume.
This Reef Moonshiner stuff need 0.2ml for the same results....... pretty good.

 

[PSXerholic]

In my case - the only change of dosing I will do now is Rubidium and I have some "target" species. I already dose Core 7, strontium, iodine, iron, vanadium and mangan on daily basis. After each Triton test - I rise suggested compounds. It will be a test if I can see anything just based on Rubidium. I will not dose on daily basis - only up to 0,1 ppm

Sincerely Lasse

Lasse, very interesting Sir, you are in Sweden right?

 

[purp]

I was referring to instant ocean salt, not seachem/aquavitro salt. Although you seemed to have cherry picked just one example from the many I gave. And for that matter, aquavitro salt DOES contain rubidium. I even found a page that listed the analysis and compared numerous salts, every salt with an ingredients list that I found, had it listed.

https://www.aquavitro.com/salinity.php

I was speaking generally about synthetic salts, and if you read specifically I was talking about aquavitro fuel. Again, I dont dispute Rb is present in seawater or by proxy in synthetic salts because it appears that they are made from evaporating seawater. If that is in fact how it is made, it would then be in all salts made this way. I dispute the necessity of adding something with no proven benefit.

Also, aquaforest sells it by itself too:
https://aquaforest.eu/en/product/rubidium/

Multiple companies sell copper bracelets that purportedly improve your balance. Both of them are junk sold by grifters. Multiple companies selling something doesn't mean its a useful product.

If you aren't sure about something, maybe you shouldn't be making claims to the contrary with no evidence. I've been looking up and cross-referencing nearly everything I said to you from manufacturer's ingredients and product descriptions or MSDS. Weren't you the one just talking about the burden of proof?

You have 100% missed my point.


So, he doesn't want to sell it because he isn't convinced? If he was the great snake-oil salesman you claim him to be, why wouldn't he be selling them anyway?

I missed this little gem. All his PDF's are free for download, with the exception of one about coral colors. I don't generally pay for information, I'm cheap, and the only reason I was able to easily reference his PDF earlier is because I downloaded it, for free. All of this just makes me think you've never actually downloaded and looked through any of it.

Bold text speaks to my original point. Selling a little something with lots of free somethings is a sales method, not a gift to mankind.

whether Andres fill his bottles with Rodi water and resells then as elements or not, my tank looks way better today than in January before I started.

Rubidium or bust!!

You've made my point for me. This is almost a religious club based on feelings and membership in a group. There are other names for this phenomenon.

 

[PSXerholic]

I was speaking generally about synthetic salts, and if you read specifically I was talking about aquavitro fuel. Again, I dont dispute Rb is present in seawater or by proxy in synthetic salts because it appears that they are made from evaporating seawater. If that is in fact how it is made, it would then be in all salts made this way. I dispute the necessity of adding something with no proven benefit.



Multiple companies sell copper bracelets that purportedly improve your balance. Both of them are junk sold by grifters. Multiple companies selling something doesn't mean its a useful product.



You have 100% missed my point.


So, he doesn't want to sell it because he isn't convinced? If he was the great snake-oil salesman you claim him to be, why wouldn't he be selling them anyway?





Bold text speaks to my original point. Selling a little something with lots of free somethings is a sales method, not a gift to mankind.


You've made my point for me. This is almost a religious club based on feelings and membership in a group. There are other names for this phenomenon.

Actual Footage of the last Reef Moonshiner Club meeting !


This conversation is already completely derailed, so I gotta actually have to commit that I have not seen a better community than the Moonshiner group since a long time, just realizing that.

 

[Tjm23slo]

Bold text speaks to my original point. Selling a little something with lots of free somethings is a sales method, not a gift to mankind.

You've made my point for me. This is almost a religious club based on feelings and membership in a group. There are other names for this phenomenon.

I would say the same thing about Red Sea except that’s what I was using and my tank was crap. He has guided me from having TN issues, dinoflagellates, turf algae, zero growth and dying corals based on 15% WC every other week with Red Sea Blue bucket to growing, repaired corals without fragging them, colors changing what someone would expect. Changes made. Stop WC, dose RM monthly based on ICP and dose a few elements daily.
I don’t give out faint praise. They main elements I needed to dose were rubidium, fluorine, iodine