Dosing Rubidium

[PSXerholic]

This would not be hard to experimentally verify, at all. Several tanks, same conditions, vary the rubidium dosing. Since you are the one making the assertion (and have a financial interest in people buying into your supplements and program), then the burden is on you to prove your theory.

I read the paper you listed earlier (Allison, 1996), and there is absolutely nothing in there that indicated that rubidium was in any way important to the function and growth of these coral. It merely listed the potential presence of Rb in coral using an extremely sensitive analytical method and different distributions in coral species throughout a relatively tight geographic area. Furthermore, in the abstract they note that the analysis of Rb may have been subject to interference and was not demonstrably real. Rubidium wasn't listed in the summary at all. It was so inconsequential (and again potentially not real) that they called it out initially in the abstract, and didn't talk about it in the summary. That should tell you something.

If you want my opinion, you know that most people are a) not going to read the papers you post and b) don't have sufficient chemistry or biology education to refute your assertions. You are using this knowledge to sell people products that are not based on anything other than feelings. I'm not saying I know better, but I do know that in my cursory reading that i am 0% convinced that with current data, that Rb is biologically imperative to coral growth.

To note, Rb is generally in associated with clay minerals, as it is an easy replacement ionically for several other elements in aluminosilicate minerals. If I was a betting man, I would put just as much money on the Rb being an inclusion from suspended clay minerals in the water column being assimilated into the surface of any coral as I would that they needed Rb to function biologically.

Hi Purp,
I was asked for my opinion on Rubidium, exclusively by the Author of this thread and I fulfilled that, and I said it right at the beginning that I'm not proving anything or can prove anything, right? So for me case closed.
Not want to argue about this, and as you mentioned very correctly, these papers are not read by majority of members here, and I mentioned that wasn't even sure where I got all the data from. Sometimes these articles are just summaries of other referenced scientific publications, and I didn't keep a log where I found what. Goes back to what I said right at the beginning.

Concerning proving anything because it was in my interest to sell the products..... nope!
I was confronted by many others to sell them my products, wasn't even my idea
But I helped with the digital calculators, assessment tools and many help others to become as successfull with the right method as I am. Pretty good so far with a great growing community.
But I had to made it a small business, since that's the only way the government allows me to practice to hand out elements and supplements. Anyways, if I do get the chance to prove this, and many other thingsI have in mind, I will!

Again, I was asked for my opinion on Rubidium, exclusively by the Author of this thread and I fulfilled that. He didn't ask for anything else from my end.

 

[PSXerholic]

I think all those factors could be mitigated by someone who is reasonably forward thinking and handy...

Volunteering ???
Would love to get someone in the loop that has the equipment and passion to see if the Rubidium does make a difference.
PM me in that case. In simple theory, if you run your tank rock solid, day by day the same way, then a visual change within a few days would be a good indication.

-Andre

 

[PSXerholic]

“This would not be hard to experimentally verify, at all. Several tanks, same conditions, vary the rubidium dosing”

I disagree. It’s a literal impossibility to faithfully replicate two tanks to the degree that would be required to see any differences.
Even two matching lights- aren’t truly matching . A 5% mismatch in spectrum could lead to a change later attributed to Rb dosing. Two power heads, positioned 2 degrees differently and 3% different in power, will produce different eddy currents.
Two heaters that have a slightly different construction may have a heating delta of a minute, but that could lead to localized differences in temp stability that could be a factor at the level of zooxanthellae

A system this complex is not experimentally tractable, which is why we rely on anecdotal evidence and perception.

it bothers me that the word ‘science’ was even mentioned in this thread, and that scientific articles are being shared when practically no one that reads them will have the ability to decipher them. Feels like an appeal to authority fallacy to gain validity

I think this can be done, similar like BRS does their experimental tanks, however that is then still not sufficient for a scientific proof. BUT another indication.

 

[Xero]

I think this can be done, similar like BRS does their experimental tanks, however that is then still not sufficient for a scientific proof. BUT another indication.

It's things like this which are why I plan to setup a little basement coral lab at some point. I'm even trying to design a repeatable/re-usable system with one of our local acrylic gurus that I'll be able to setup a bunch of tanks with, hopefully on the cheap. Admittedly, rubidium testing is hardly on my short list, I've got at least another 2-3 experiments I want to run.

I swear though, it's hard to prove much of anything in this hobby at times. I need like, time-series videos and double-blind testing on top of it, and that still won't make me a scientist, just rather, another hobbyist that has "seen too much."

I've noticed, similar to what you mentioned earlier, that these elements are in numerous products, 2 parts, fuel, etc. I'd almost like to ask them where they came up with this idea, otherwise, why add it? I doubt it will be easy to get good answers. No one wants to reveal ALL the secrets to their magic tricks, well, not until you pay for the book.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Me too! I'm unsure if that is the right article since I don't have a valid subscription anymore to this one:
"Comparative determinations of trace and minor elements in coral aragonite by ion microprobe analysis, with preliminary results from Phuket, southern Thailand"

That was (MAYBE) on of the publicaitons where I found interesting data for Barium and Rubidium.
You may have the "Grand-Access" rights here ;-)

What I read (or better understood) was basically that there were some indications that the symbiotic algae likely need the Rubidium as part of their metabolism and the hosts symbiotic bacteria in the tissue for certain biological processes to support certain cell reproduction processes, as you can imagine these articles do not end in final conclusions, and only mentioning the posssibilities as usual. This need a dedicated research.

This one just shows ion concentrations in skeletons, not any evidence of desirability or undesirability:

"Magnesium, rubidium, strontium, and barium concentrations were in reasonable agreement with values previously reported in the literature. Uranium concentrations were considerably lower than previous estimates probably reflecting a miscalibration of the ion microprobe. "

"The coral skeletons examined here are heterogeneous with respect to magnesium, rubidium, strontium, barium, and uranium on a very small scale. "

 

[User]

I think this can be done, similar like BRS does their experimental tanks, however that is then still not sufficient for a scientific proof. BUT another indication.

Lol.

I don’t think mentioning BRS and experimental helps your case

I love those guys, but N=1 in all cases, plus, you know, obvious conflicts of interest, make me tune out whenever they show their ‘results’.

 

[Xero]

Lol.

I don’t think mentioning BRS and experimental helps your case

I love those guys, but N=1 in all cases, plus, you know, obvious conflicts of interest, make me tune out whenever they show their ‘results’.

To be fair, who else is doing "video experiments" like this? It's just a point of reference, "like brs." I can't think of many other things it would be like.

I think literally anyone doing the same thing, but without a vested interest, would be better, but, it also costs time and money, so who else is really going to go so far out on a limb? Except for crazies like me who already have 10 tanks at their house running...lol.

 

[purp]

Again. You’re making the assertion. You provide the proof. That’s how this works. I’m not saying you’re wrong. I’m saying you haven’t provided any evidence that you’re right.

 

[FFJB]

It looks to be some people just like to be argumentative about just about everything

 

[User]

It looks to be some people just like to be argumentative about just about everything

NO THEY DONT!!!!!!

 

[purp]

Concerning proving anything because it was in my interest to sell the products..... nope!
I was confronted by many others to sell them my products, wasn't even my idea

You have a store that sells PDFs of your guides as well as supplements. It doesn’t matter what prompted you to start doing this, you have a financial interest in people believing that you are knowledgeable.

At least be honest about your motivations, because lots of the other the things you’re peddling are based on feelings, anecdotes, and word searches in google scholar. If you actually read and understood the Allison, 1996 paper, you would see that there is 0 confirmation of what you are positing.

 

[PSXerholic]

This one just shows ion concentrations in skeletons, not any evidence of desirability or undesirability:

"Magnesium, rubidium, strontium, and barium concentrations were in reasonable agreement with values previously reported in the literature. Uranium concentrations were considerably lower than previous estimates probably reflecting a miscalibration of the ion microprobe. "

"The coral skeletons examined here are heterogeneous with respect to magnesium, rubidium, strontium, barium, and uranium on a very small scale. "

So that's definitely proof that Rubidium as well as Barium is part of a Biochemical process in Reef building corals, another fact is that Rubidium is part of the natural seawater composition. So in order to replicate NSW environments from a chemical perspective it's a required ingredient.
But to be honest, I'm not trying to convince anyone, they find out by themself. You know that there is literally nowhere anything that can be used to argue in any direction since the research isn't done yet.

Nobody believed me when I used Witch Hazel against TN issues, and now I have constantly people telling me their success stories by applying my advise and guidance against their RTN/STN issues. And, they pour Witch Hazel in their tank ath the end. I haven't seen any scientific proof or even indication that Witch Hazel contributes anything against coral diseases in enclosed Reef Aquaria either. Not sure if you heard about this method.

So Randy, let's turn it around and I would be interested, what ideas or theories you would have where Rubidium could have a useful function? Interesting was however to see that Rubidium is used in the biological field and cell research.............

 

[purp]

So that's definitely proof that Rubidium as well as Barium is part of a Biochemical process in Reef building corals, another fact is that Rubidium is part of the natural seawater composition. So in order to replicate NSW environments from a chemical perspective it's a required ingredient.
But to be honest, I'm not trying to convince anyone, they find out by themself. You know that there is literally nowhere anything that can be used to argue in any direction since the research isn't done yet.

Nobody believed me when I used Witch Hazel against TN issues, and now I have constantly people telling me their success stories by applying my advise and guidance against their RTN/STN issues. And, they pour Witch Hazel in their tank ath the end. I haven't seen any scientific proof or even indication that Witch Hazel contributes anything against coral diseases in enclosed Reef Aquaria either. Not sure if you heard about this method.

So Randy, let's turn it around and I would be interested, what ideas or theories you would have where Rubidium could have a useful function? Interesting was however to see that Rubidium is used in the biological field and cell research.............

That is a false statement. Just because it is present doesn’t mean it’s beneficial or necessary. Randy won’t produce a theory on this because there is literally zero evidence in literature of its necessity or benefit. Just because it is present in NSW in nature doesn’t make it necessary or beneficial. There is N2O in the air we breath, and it serves no biological purpose for humans. Do we put nitrous in oxygen tanks when me scuba dive ? That line of reasoning is not well founded.

 

[PSXerholic]

That is a false statement. Just because it is present doesn’t mean it’s beneficial or necessary. Randy won’t produce a theory on this because there is literally zero evidence in literature of its necessity or benefit. Just because it is present in NSW in nature doesn’t make it necessary or beneficial. There is N2O in the air we breath, and it serves no biological purpose for humans. Do we put nitrous in oxygen tanks when me scuba dive ? That line of reasoning is not well founded.

You make me feel a bit like Carol Baskin now !
Well, you keep beating a dead horse, it's what I already said earlier now multiple times.

Got to go now, making another batch of 50 Gallons of Rubidium solution, see you guys later...........

 

[purp]

And this is not because this is a selling product, there are other products such as Tin, Silver, Copper as individual products that did not make it to the Sales-Room simply because their effects as part of the method couldn't even convince me yet.
So it's not because it's driven by money, people who know me, know that ;-)

So which is it? Should we be striving to have water match NSW or not? Because you say we should increase rubidibium of all things, but not tin copper or silver? You can't have it both ways. And if you can't *prove* that rubidium is beneficial, whatever that means, then you're just selling snake oil.

 

[Herby’s reef]

I dosed rubidium and many corals that were dull now glow! My elegance was a pale green and now it is metallic! If it is a placebo, then my corals don’t know it! Without a doubt, this is the most effective “snake oil” I have purchased

 

[purp]

If it's that effective, surely someone could run parallel identical tanks and prove it.

 

[Herby’s reef]

Maybe, but I don’t need it. I will just enjoy my glowing elegance!

If it's that effective, surely someone could run parallel identical tanks and prove it.

If it's that effective, surely someone could run parallel identical tanks and prove it.

 

[Xero]

So which is it? Should we be striving to have water match NSW or not? Because you say we should increase rubidibium of all things, but not tin copper or silver? You can't have it both ways. And if you can't *prove* that rubidium is beneficial, whatever that means, then you're just selling snake oil.

AquaVitro Fuel has Tin, Copper and Rubidium, in addition to the aminos that it's known for. I know many people who dose this product and that's why I'm answering "yes" to this, but I can also answer "yes" to most of those because of it (except for silver.)

So....you're not just accusing him of selling snake oil, but also Seachem, ESV (B-ionic), not to mention, instant ocean, and most of the salt makers, as many/most salt mixes have these elements, too.

I'm also not sure where he ever said "NOT" to increase copper or tin or silver? I pulled up his PDF document again out of curiosity, and searched for each of these in it. For silver it says "May be useful and enhancing on Coral tanks, will keep you guys updated". For tin, I actually see suggestions for supplementing it, but mentions in regards to his calculator: "Tin is not available yet for public and is in the testing phase." Lastly, for copper, it either says that it's provided by other things (food ,etc), or that it hasn't been experimented with enough. So I can't help but feel you're making some false claims about what he's actually suggesting.

I don't actually use his method, but I've been following along with his developments for a little while now, as it seems a little more data-driven than "here, use this magic black/blue/purple bottle." I'm definitely more skeptical of the latter, data-driven makes more sense to me. A system of testing and compensation doesn't really sound too far-fetched.

 

[Lasse]

With this poll I did a try to get a picture over how many that have dosed rubidium and how the outcome had been. It is a way of collecting cases and experiences and for me - its the first stage if you want to investigate anything - collect material and do observations Its the way science develops many times - first observe - after that try to explain what´s happen with experiments and the collected knowledge that exist.

I have no idea if Rubidium have any benefits for corals or not - but if enough of people can show one or another experiences with it - it can get an idea if it is snake oil or if there is any form of substances in the claims. The doses suggested is in line with natural content in sea water - the risk that it should be unfavorable to corals are therefore rather low.

Yes - I tag @PSXerholic in this thread because I know that he have experiences with it. He also - like me - do not use regular WC, using regular ICP testing and try to adjust the water after these tests. I have run my aquarium more or less without regular WC for three years now. I use Triton Core 7 system and I compensate the rising salinity with maybe 0.5 l a day (change 0.5 l saltwater with 0.5 l RO water) Triton do not test for rubidium but after 3 years I suppose I have depleted all off it. I´m now slowly rise it to 0.1 ppm. My aquarium is well documented here on R2R (with pictures) and I will also document changes from now (if any)

In fact Rubidium have been suggested as a possible ultratrace element in a review from 1998

Here is the link to your lost article Andrew

Do we put nitrous in oxygen tanks when me scuba dive

Sorry - it is already invented - it is named enhanced air or Nitrox diving.

Sincerely Lasse