But you are not new to the hobby and have decades of experience, as well as understand the risk, as well as fully understand the chemistry and biology. Brandon's context here is aimed at those new to the hobby that have none of this experience or knowledge.
Cycle means you have established enough bacteria to process waste into nitrate. It really has nothing to do with testing. The tests only show the waste products of the bacteria not taken in. It does not truly show anything about whether a tank has truly enough bacteria to process load. Now you could add ammonia, but if everything is in place. You won't see any results even nitrate with good nitrate intake and exportation.
"Stalling" initially was thought to be the cross over point in nutrient availability, causing a bacterial population shift. This shift meant that the previously processed nutrient consumption slowed, as the new bacterial population gained ground. Now, if that's true or not is a different matter. I think some folk have muddied the waters though and call a low ammonia level such as 0.25ppm ammonia a "stall" causing fear. Those folk should really consult a free ammonia calculator, pre-armed with a pH reading.
That makes sense and I can understand. Seems like a stall but still just bacteria shift to accommodate the higher nutrient spike. Usually seen in tanks with something that died off that's creating larger than normal levels. Longer it sits the more rapid it will decay. My view anyways or sand bed that went bad from improper care or nutrient sink and spike nitrates more and more or sudden release you happen to test at right time. There is always that one odd instance lol.
I don't get your comment - if cycled means you have established enough bacteria to produce waste into nitrate, how do you determine that without testing? Since the value of total NH4 should be '0' or close to 0, the presence of any except (as I said) a very small amount that by definition proves that the tank does not have enough bacteria to process the load in the tank. (Note - I'm not talking about testing ammonia after adding 2 ppm or 4 ppm. I'm talking about taking a tank with x fish, and doubling the number of fish in a day. It is rare in a cycled tank to not see 'some' nitrate, as compared to zero - unless the bioload is extremely small
I agree with you - the other possibility would be 1) testing error 2) the bacteria (assuming bottled bacteria was used) was not active or was dead.
Let's use another example. If your tank looks good, and is already established, what is the purpose of testing Ca, PO4, Nitrate, alkalinity? Especially if you've added nothing new and made no changes. The answer is self-evident - that these can change due to use by corals, and other factors. So - even though probably 99% of the tests done by reefers daily, weekly, etc (whatever the schedule) - are going to be 'normal'. I don't think many reefers would recommend merely observing a tank to prove that their parameters are normal. I say this becasue in my experience, corals and fish can tolerate (but not thrive) in many alkalinities, PO4 levels, etc. But eventually the tank can crash. Testing helps prevent surprises.
I think there are many many definitions/causes of 'cycling stall' - and there a lot of very different ways to cycle a tank. Including adding fish and bacteria on day 1. (which is what many bacterial products say is possible). Were I to do that type of cycle - I would definitely be testing the water for ammonia. why? Because the tank and fish will look fine, until levels become too high, and then there is a crash. IMHO, it is imprudent for people to rely on 'visual cues' to determine if a tank is 'cycled'. When there are relatively simple, accurate cheap tests that can be done until it's documented.
And a temperature and salinity
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Which sums up with I think as well - and which justifies prophylactic testing when perhaps thousands of dollars of rock, etc and potentially fish/inverts are at stake - when setting up a new aquarium.
The classic nitrification cycle include 2 steps - the first when microorganism of different types oxidize NH4/NH3 (total ammonia) into NO2 (nitrite) . Its mostly ammonium oxidizing archaea (AOA) and ammonium oxidizing bacteria (AOB). The most well-known of these AOB is bacteria from the genus nitrosomonas This is normally a rather fast starting process that can take place in oxygen levels down to around 2-3 mg O2/L
I do not agree with this - there is situations where rather much total ammonia (NH3/NH4) can accumulate in anaerobic pockets of a mature tank, especially if it is feed with organic carbon. If these "pockets" are released in the wrong time (read high pH) toxic events can happens. Especially if the tanks normal nitrification rate is low. I have till now measured total ammonia (NH3/NH4) pocket around 0.9 mg/L in my aquarium. I know this because I measure.
Ignorance is not bliss? How dare you, lol
Bacteria establishment has nothing to do with testing. Testing is an end result only. Ammonia is the end result of waste breaking down before it is intakes by bacteria to convert to nitrite. High ammonia is caused by a spike in nutrients. When starting a new tank and new dry rock, there is nothing. If left alone you will still get bacteria but very tiny amount. Now I add a small fish. You may not see any ammonia depending on size of tank. But leave it that way for a year no issues. Now I add 20 fish at once. And suddenly I have ammonia. Does this mean my tank was never cycled even though when I tested originally it didn't show anything? It was running for a year. Is my cycle stalled? No. I simply added more bioload than the current bacteria and the bacteria needs to populate. Now say it's been a few days no ammonia or nitrite and fish are good and no nitrate because I have excellent export control. Does this mean because I don't have any nitrate, ammonia or nitrite it isn't cycled yet?
You have some great info but it muddies the discussion. We are not talking about fish processing nitrite.
Bacterial establishment has everything to do with testing. Since - its bacterial establishment that results in ammonia and nitrite falling, nitrate rising and subsequently falling. Testing itself does not alter the process - or at least it doesn't need to - but many protocols exist whereby you add x amount of ammonia to lets say 2-4 ppm, and then test - once it reaches 0 or near 0, you add the same amount of ammonia and see if indeed it is processed. This isn't my protocol, and I'm not defending or criticizing it, however, in many cycling protocols testing is part of the process. So - anyone making a blanket statement about testing IMHO is sending a message which may be misunderstood by (especially newer) reefers.
This I believe is incorrect. there are anaerobic areas in aquaria - and by definition anaerobic means 0 oxygen (or nearly 0). Fish and invertebrates do die with low oxygen levels (take an easy example - someone overfeeds their tank, there is a bacterial bloom, and the oxygen levels drop and everything dies. Those bacteria that bloom are not obligate autotrophs, but rather heterotrophs - which have a much shorter doubling time. Obligate autotrophs do best in a high oxygen area of the tank - and if it drops, their function and multiplication will also drop correspondingly
I think we are looking and agreeing on things just not quite connecting lol
Right but their numbers won't reach zero. And in cycling we can't determine if we have enough bacteria for the load we want usually. Unless we physically add those bacteria ourselves. I think you clarified for me what @Lasse was trying to state. Even then, always build up slowly with fish. Coral you can almost dump right in and load up but still better to go slow.
