Dosing Rubidium

[Lasse]

It is nearly impossible to take pictures that give a fair depiction of the colours of corals in an aquarium. However I will try to post follow ups in my build thread. For the moment I´m trying to adapt my camera settings in order to take as perfect colours as possible. I do not want to use Photoshop afterwards. I need also to know in which spectra I get the best and natural colours. My camera has an unique feature - I can by my self adjust the white balance for the spectrum in use.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Yes that true - but either me or you know if it is an advantage or not for the whole organism if the skeleton contain these ions. However we know from nature that certain ions/compounds is incorporated both in skeletons and soft tissues and that these organisms have succeeded to survive for a rather long period in different way.

Is it so bad to try to give the organisms an environment that is so near the nature that you can come as long as you do not know (by experiences) if certain ions/compounds is an advantage/disadvantage if they are higher or lower than natural levels?

If you use a holistic approach instead of only look at the small building blocks of what we call life. I´m Europan - the word holistic is not a bad word - not the way it seems to be in the US.

If someone said to me before the millenium shift that cadmium had an biological role I would only laugh but now we know that there is organisms there cadmium has an biological role. Life have learned me that never say never. There is always surprises around the corner.

Once again - I do not know if rubidium in natural concentrations have any enchanted effect on corals or not. I start this thread as an attempt to collect knowledge how frequently use of rubidium is and what effects people may have seen. In the same time time I run a test (subjective - yes) in my own aquarium because there is claims of benefits to corals I have some problems with.

There is indications in least in on animal that rubidium can have some biological effects (the german goath study).

I think I´m known here on R2R to be a fierce opponents to anyone who wants to stop chemicals of all kinds in their aquarium - I prefer natural way of handling problems that can show up. To try to maintain natural levels of different compounds in the water is however another thing.

Sincerely Lasse

If your goal is to maintain everything at NSW levels, and thereby get calcium carbonate (skeletons or otherwise) that reflects how all of those those impurites get into the calcium carbonate, regardless of evidence of utility or not, maintaining NSw levels of rubidium is a fine goal.

That is very different than anyone claiming there is evidence that it is useful, and I'm not sure where one draws the line since all elements including uranium and plutonium also get into skeletons.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

So that's definitely proof that Rubidium as well as Barium is part of a Biochemical process in Reef building corals, another fact is that Rubidium is part of the natural seawater composition. So in order to replicate NSW environments from a

I could not possibly agree with that, unless you extend it to all elements that randomly get into depositing calcium carbonate. Why not uranium? Plutonium?

So Randy, let's turn it around and I would be interested, what ideas or theories you would have where Rubidium could have a useful function? Interesting was however to see that Rubidium is used in the biological field and cell research.............

i do not believe that my random speculations would be of any value. I could equally well give random ideas on why it is undesirable.

If someone had clear evidence of utility, then there might be cause to try to figure out how . In absence of such evidence, it seems like wasted effort.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

In my case - the only change of dosing I will do now is Rubidium and I have some "target" species. I already dose Core 7, strontium, iodine, iron, vanadium and mangan on daily basis. After each Triton test - I rise suggested compounds. It will be a test if I can see anything just based on Rubidium. I will not dose on daily basis - only up to 0,1 ppm

Sincerely Lasse

That certainly seems like a fine experiment. What exactly are you monitoring?

 

[purp]

If your goal is to maintain everything at NSW levels, and thereby get calcium carbonate (skeletons or otherwise) that reflects how all of those those impurites get into the calcium carbonate, regardless of evidence of utility or not, maintaining NSw levels of rubidium is a fine goal.

That is very different than anyone claiming there is evidence that it is useful, and I'm not sure where one draws the line since all elements including uranium and plutonium also get into skeletons.

When the guy with the harvard PhD in chemistry says it people listen....lol

 

[Lasse]

I have some "problem" LPS (for me) and some mushrooms that have reproduce - but not very fast. I have get total three offsprings in 3 years of one species (three years in my aquarium) and not so much growth of other mushrooms. Some grow well (green rhodactis) but others just survive. The "problem" LPS I am most found of - normally goes well in my aquariums for some time but have disappear after less than a year. The present one has gone well in my present aquarium for nearly 2 years but start do go downhill in the last months. In this aquarium I try to add trace elements (or suspected trace elements) upt to NSW concentrations or at least have a steady flux of them through the system. This tactic have lead to an aquarium that goes very well for many corals and that corals that was "problems" before at least survive. However - some of them have decline a little the last months and I read some text about Rubidium there the claim was just that it promote colouration, growth and propagation of just the types that I have a little problem with.

My aquarium is rather "steady" now with very good growth of montipora and hystrix, rhodactis, clams, a type of GSP and some other SPS.

My monitoring will be the health of the "problem" corals, their growth, colouration and propagation. I am very aware that it will only be my subjective look that will guide me how to think about this. If nothing happens - that's good and maybe the best outcome - at least I do not need to bother about that any longer. If I see a change - negative or positive - it will only be an indication that there can be some effect of rubidium - but in such complex system as an aquarium - you can´t be sure. However - other can repeat what i have done and with enough of experiences can we get closer to a knowledge if it can give any advantages or not. This is the way most hobbyists have build their skills since the dawn of the aquarium hobby - but today with internet thing tend to go faster :p

Here is two of the corals that I will monitor - there is another ricordea too that I try to follow

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During this time I will monitor all other water parameters like pH, redox, salinity, alkalinity, calcium, phosphate and nitrate. I have huge amount of old measurements - how it was before.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Lasse]

When the guy with the harvard PhD in chemistry says it people listen....lol

Yea - and if humanity have had that strategy in the past - we have still been at the stone age :p If science not be challenged - science will die.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Yea - and if humanity have had that strategy in the past - we have still been at the stone age :p If science not be challenged - science will die.

Sincerely Lasse

I dont disagree with that.
Taken too far however, You end up with the flat earth guy who launched himself in a homemade rocket to take a picture from above of the flat earth to prove his point. Ended up killing himself a few months ago when the rocket crashed. lol

 

[Lasse]

Taken too far however, You end up with the flat earth guy who launched himself in a homemade rocket to take a picture from above of the flat earth to prove his point. Ended up killing himself a few months ago when the rocket crashed. lol

With my sense of humour - I can say that science won that fight :p But if it has any relevance to the present discussion - I must ask the gods before I can answer

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Stigigemla]

If You were my customer I would advice You to raise the value of metals, specially nickel and zink. They are essential for the build of the stone skeletons.
In general, when only 1 or 2 species of corals dont go well I suspect organic poisoning from other species. So I would recommend active carbon filtering.
There is one trick I guess You dont like. Change water. If a 10% water change does affect the corals it is something missing.
If you need more than 100% water change it is because there is too much of something.

 

[Lasse]

If You were my customer I would advice You to raise the value of metals, specially nickel and zink. They are essential for the build of the stone skeletons.
In general, when only 1 or 2 species of corals dont go well I suspect organic poisoning from other species. So I would recommend active carbon filtering.
There is one trick I guess You dont like. Change water. If a 10% water change does affect the corals it is something missing.
If you need more than 100% water change it is because there is too much of something.

But I´m not a customer of you, Stig :p

I put in nickel an zinc after the recommendations.

The Zn top maybe have something to do with it was just before that I for the last time dose a multiple trace elements mixture. It was of Swedish origin Stig :D

These type of corals that go well for a while and decline or or stagnate after a while always have done that regardless of using active carbon or doing WC. Its not so easy.

I can say that I have never have an aquarium going as well as this do and it has an impossible mix of corals.I run an oxidator and it will oxidate most of the organic toxins IMO.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Lasse]

Now it is 7 days after the first dosage of Rubidium. I dose in two aquariums and there is a total unexpected effect in both aquariums. The WOW factor has increase. Both aquariums seems more vibrant and clear.

I know - you will do a double Salchow on this @Randy Holmes-Farley :D - but this is really my impression. Its like the light reflection - both from corals and sand has increased. I can´t explain it better.

This get me thinking - we all concentrate on the corals and their benefits or not by this rather common trace element (0.1 ppm in natural seawater) - but could it be other pathways - for bacteria or direct chemical effects (flocculation) ?

I found this in this article

Rubidium and barium are not of concern as radioactive pollutants, but the ability of these elements to function as analogs to the lighter essential elements of their respective groups (or ions of similar valence) has been explored. No absolute requirement for rubidium in bacterial growth has been identified, but in the absence of K+, Rb+ restored normal or near-normal growth in several bacteria (17, 53, 77). Rb+ effectively substituted for K+ in the biosynthesis of a bacterial pigment (18) and for K+ or NH4+ in the activation of some bacterial and fungal enzymes (11, 135, 141). Barium is the least studied of the heavier alkali and alkali earth metals in terms of functionally replacing the lighter elements of these groups in biological systems. Compared to Sr2+, Ba2+ was a less effective substitute for Ca2+ or Mg2+ in the processes described above. However, barium sulfate does have a natural function in mechanoreceptor organelles found in members of the protozoan genus Loxodes (49), which is discussed later in this review.

Moreover, protozoan ciliates of the genus Loxodes have mechanoreceptor organelles composed mainly of barium sulfate (49). This suggests that these microorganisms have evolved specific mechanisms to accumulate and utilize these heavy elements.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Maybe you killed off the plankton, making the water clearer. lol

Just to clarify, you say the sand looks better? In what way?

The above article that you post does not surprise me since rubidium looks very much like potassium, and functions like it biologically. If potassium is missing, rubidium is known to substitute. In your aquarium, however, the potassium is presumably normal (which is very high relative to levels in the article) and rubidium is very, very low relative to potassium.

 

[Pdash]

Well, the brief "observation" I made mutliple times now, lead truly to the fact that there are positive effects on many organisms. Well, if you look at the common ICP test (not considering the arguments on the technology and tolerances) then I found that Rubidium is very low bit mostly not detectable in most tanks. The beauty with individual elements on hand is that it's possible to play with the individual elements. I was very surprised to hear now in numerous cases that dosing the Rubidium only, did show the same positive effects on Zoa, Shooms and Torches and LPS.

An overdosing to 1,8mg/L did not show negative or more positive effects, also reported by a few other users that tried to increase Rubidium into the 0.5ppm range.

All of this has not been logged, listed or kept records of! Just mentioning this upfront, simply because I don't have the time to study and record this in a more scientific way and method :-(

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself – and you are the easiest person to fool"

 

[PSXerholic]

Now it is 7 days after the first dosage of Rubidium. I dose in two aquariums and there is a total unexpected effect in both aquariums. The WOW factor has increase. Both aquariums seems more vibrant and clear.

I know - you will do a double Salchow on this @Randy Holmes-Farley :D - but this is really my impression. Its like the light reflection - both from corals and sand has increased. I can´t explain it better.

This get me thinking - we all concentrate on the corals and their benefits or not by this rather common trace element (0.1 ppm in natural seawater) - but could it be other pathways - for bacteria or direct chemical effects (flocculation) ?

I found this in this article





Sincerely Lasse

Lasse, I haven't looked at this thread since a few days and had to catch up.
Great you like the Rubidium and I'm pretty confident that you will see not just a cleaner tank, as well as better looking soft corals in the first instance as all the other guys reported back to me in the Rubidium BETA phase years back.

There are some articles out there that talk about the importance of many trace elements to bacteria growth/population as well as to their effects on bacterial metabolism in marine environment. Of course there is no evidence and detail studies I found so far, remember to read some dissertations on that subject.
A lot of room for speculation, but generally Trace elements are supporting the bacteria biology ;-)
Thanks for sharing the link.

On the other side Rubidium is a very reactive oxidizer, which may contribute to the improved clarity from a chemical perspective. So not sure if the Rubidium was a direct influencing factor on the clarity. But who knows.

Most of the guys don't want to post their improved signs and personal experience here, since they don't want to go through the hassle here with the way "certain" people react here.

Keep doing it, you will see it by yourself ;-)

 

[PSXerholic]

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself – and you are the easiest person to fool"

Exactly, don't be a Lemming and do things on your own, and see by yourself.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

On the other side Rubidium is a very reactive oxidizer, which may contribute to the improved clarity from a chemical perspective. So not sure if the Rubidium was a direct influencing factor on the clarity. But who knows.

I'm not sure what exactly you are claiming.

How do you propose the Rb+1 that gets dosed functions as an oxidizer?

 

[PSXerholic]

I'm not sure what exactly you are claiming.

How do you propose the Rb+1 that gets dosed functions as an oxidizer?

Not claiming anything Randy, that's the point what some of the others are missing here ;-)
Humankind starts with observations and will follow up to find out why certain things are like they are, well I leave the second part to the scientific world to figure out what certain trace elements do in the complex organism of a Coral, we may be 2-3 decades away from the resolving this puzzle.

I just kept reading that Rubidium is considered a highly reactive oxidizer, for scientists its considered toxic, even while no health risks are known.

But it makes my Juggernauts popping up everywhere.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Not claiming anything Randy, that's the point what some of the others are missing here ;-)
.....

I just kept reading that Rubidium is considered a highly reactive oxidizer, for scientists its considered toxic, even while no health risks are known.

No, it isn't any sort of oxidizer, which you claimed and which is why I asked. I think you must be confusing it with something else.

Rubidium metal is a super strong reducing agent and no one would be using it since it bursts into flame on contact with water.

Rubidium+1 (which is what is in an additive) is very stable and will not oxidize anything except lithium metal itself (even sodium ion will more readily oxidize things than rubidium ion).

 

[Lasse]

Maybe you killed off the plankton, making the water clearer. lol

On the other side Rubidium is a very reactive oxidizer, which may contribute to the improved clarity from a chemical perspective.

Can´t role out either of them if but I think that Rubidium is not a strong oxidizer but highly reactive in other ways.

Just to clarify, you say the sand looks better? In what way?

It´s difficult to explain - but it is like the reflection index had improve a lot. Even the parts with micro layers seems to shine in a way it did not before

The above article that you post does not surprise me since rubidium looks very much like potassium, and functions like it biologically. If potassium is missing, rubidium is known to substitute. In your aquarium, however, the potassium is presumably normal (which is very high relative to levels in the article) and rubidium is very, very low relative to potassium.

My bold - Ok - in that case - it has a biological role. However - your right - there is no K deficiency in my aquaria.

I can´t say if Rubidium in one or another way affect corals health or colouration base on scientific facts - that´s true at this time - but that it is not the same as saying that it not do it. The only statement that can be done is that there is no scientific explanations to observations stating that it does for the moment. This not mean that i it will forever be so - science does not work that way. Science is observations, investigations, explanation and validation. In this case - we are in the observation phase - and for me its important to collect other peoples observation of the same phenomena and if it is possible - knite it to existing science. But there is no existing scientific knowledge about Rubidium and corals, no scientific investigations, no scientific explanations and no scientific validations - neither negative or positive for the time being.

The observations I have done until now include this Wow effect but also a tendency that some corals become lighter, more metallic while others get darker and more saturated in colors.


Sincerely Lasse