Effects of tap water on Nitrifying during Rip-Clean method: Experiment

[Coxey81]

@Garf @Jedi1199 @brandon429 @MnFish1 @Rmckoy @Obsessed with fish

I have found the secret to cycling a tank intantly!

How to instantly cycle your tank. 1. Buy 2nd hand filter media from a cycled tank. 2. Put 2nd hand filter media in the filter. Only use 2nd hand filter media and make sure there's enough. 3. Buy 2nd hand gravel and put it in the tank. 4. Leave it all to settle for about a day then add fish...

www.reef2reef.com

The above posted thread prompted me to conduct an experiment to answer some questions about a couple of things.

1. Instant cycling a tank with rock or bio media.

2. The effects of tap water on nitrifying bacteria that occurs during the Rip-Clean Method proposed by @brandon429 for cleaning rocks with algae issues, etc.

For the experiment:

1. I placed 4 gallons of RODI salt water with a 1.025 SG in my sterile 10 gallon QT tank with a heater and powerhead.

2. I brought the temperature up to 79 degrees and added ~4.5 pounds of rock that has been in my sump for at least 6 months.

3. I added 16 drops (4 drops per gallon) of Dr. Tim's Ammonia Chlorite per the directions to test for a cycled tank.

4. After 10 minutes I tested for NH3+NH4, NO2, and NO3. These were those results.

NH3+NH4 - off scale (high)
NO2 - zero
NO3 - zero

Obviously, after just adding the large amount of ammonia chlorite levels of NH3 and NH4 are expected to be high because the bacteria has not had time to process it.

If the tank does instant cycle I should see no levels of NH3 and NH4 tomorrow after 24 hours have passed per the directions for Dr. Tim's test to see if the tank is cycled.

"The cycle is completed when you can add the full dose of ammonia (2 to 3 mg/L-N) and overnight it all disappears to nitrate with no sign of nitrite. Now you can start to add fish."

If the tank is cycled I will proceed with the second part of the experiment which will include cleaning the tank to remove any possible nitrifying bacteria, starting with a new 4 gallons of heated RODI saltwater, rinsing and brushing the rocks for 1 minute in hot tap water, adding them back to the tank, and dosing with the 16 drops of ammonia chlorite again to see if the bacteria is still alive and can remove all NH4-NH3 within 24 hours.

 

[Garf]

@Garf @Jedi1199 @brandon429 @MnFish1 @Rmckoy @Obsessed with fish

I have found the secret to cycling a tank intantly!

How to instantly cycle your tank. 1. Buy 2nd hand filter media from a cycled tank. 2. Put 2nd hand filter media in the filter. Only use 2nd hand filter media and make sure there's enough. 3. Buy 2nd hand gravel and put it in the tank. 4. Leave it all to settle for about a day then add fish...

www.reef2reef.com

The above posted thread prompted me to conduct an experiment to answer some questions about a couple of things.

1. Instant cycling a tank with rock or bio media.

2. The effects of tap water on nitrifying bacteria that occurs during the Rip-Clean Method proposed by @brandon429 for cleaning rocks with algae issues, etc.

For the experiment:

1. I placed 4 gallons of RODI salt water with a 1.025 SG in my sterile 10 gallon QT tank with a heater and powerhead.

2. I brought the temperature up to 79 degrees and added ~4.5 pounds of rock that has been in my sump for at least 6 months.

3. I added 16 drops (4 drops per gallon) of Dr. Tim's Ammonia Chlorite per the directions to test for a cycled tank.

4. After 10 minutes I tested for NH3+NH4, NO2, and NO3. These were those results.

NH3+NH4 - off scale (high)
NO2 - zero
NO3 - zero

Obviously, after just adding the large amount of ammonia chlorite levels of NH3 and NH4 are expected to be high because the bacteria has not had time to process it.

If the tank does instant cycle I should see no levels of NH3 and NH4 tomorrow after 24 hours have passed per the directions for Dr. Tim's test to see if the tank is cycled.

"The cycle is completed when you can add the full dose of ammonia (2 to 3 mg/L-N) and overnight it all disappears to nitrate with no sign of nitrite. Now you can start to add fish."

If the tank is cycled I will proceed with the second part of the experiment which will include cleaning the tank to remove any possible nitrifying bacteria, starting with a new 4 gallons of heated RODI saltwater, rinsing and brushing the rocks for 1 minute in hot tap water, adding them back to the tank, and dosing with the 16 drops of ammonia chlorite again to see if the bacteria is still alive and can remove all NH4-NH3 within 24 hours.

Excellent, a learning thread, can’t wait

 

[brandon429]

I disagree on the validity of the test.

to align with actual rip cleans, first find and post one that used that little live rock. Show from our rip clean threads the direct example.

All rip cleans get five times that amount of surface area in the post set up, a rock wall right in the center.

you played down surface area entirely too much.


second issue, this isn’t a seneye experiment. It’s using the #2 misreading kit online that we literally have eight pages of ammonia misreads on

if the surface area and the test kit is realigned, I’ll think it’s a valid study.


third, the animals kept alive for you using updated cycling science are proof above findings on that one ammonia kit.


fourth

the dose of ammonia is entirely too much, has no basis to what tanks see after re assembly after a rip clean.

 

[Coxey81]

I disagree on the validity of the test.

to align with actual rip cleans, first find and post one that used that little live rock. Show from our rip clean threads the direct example.

Well, I went with a pound per gallon since that is the typical recommended amount when setting up a tank.

If it doesn't cycle within the 24 hours I plan to wait until it does to make sure there is plenty of bacteria present before continuing with the second part of the experiment and washing the rock.

Plus, that was about all the rock I had available in my sump. Lol

 

[brandon429]

If it doesn’t cycle in 24 hours there’s no upscaled application to rip cleans, this test has several variables for control missing. I have over eight straight pages of that kit misreading when you overdose ammonia like that

I stated your surface area is grossly under par and that no examples exist in our rip cleans for you to compare to.

You have living animals because our method works. I kept your animals from dying with careful presence and study unique to your multi state move.


get a seneye and redo. Unsubbed. Still working in actual tanks though, doing rip cleans, that matters for pattern tracking. Two more were just completed in chat. Updates to the pertinent threads coming, when those are spot checked on seneye, we pass, thats the proof.

 

[Garf]

Well, the aquarium is only 30% full, so the ratio of surface area to liquid looks fine to me. I’ve started QT tanks with less. Let the games begin;
@Lasse

 

[Coxey81]

Yes, but in my move I didn't wash the rocks at all. I greatly appreciated your help though.

I'm curious to see the results so that if I ever need to perform a rip clean I will have a bit more confidence in doing so.

I don't own a seneye, and don't plan to buy one for this.

 

[Idech]

Thank you for doing that. I think it’s a very valid test and it will be really interesting to watch !

 

[Little c big D]

1lbs per gallon is more than enough surface area for this.

 

[Lasse]

Maybe a good experiment. Interesting to see result from the first 24 hours and that you include nitrite test. However it is a huge N load you have put into that aquarium.

Interesting from the instructions by DR Thim

The cycle is completed when you can add the full dose of ammonia (2 to 3 mg/L-N) and overnight it all disappears to nitrate with no sign of nitrite. Now you can start to add fish."

I´ll think o have seen that statement before

@Coxey81 I send my guessed result for tomorrow test to @Garf in a PM and he can reveal them after you have post the real result tomorrow. I do not post them to you because of possible bias

Sincerely Lasse

 

[brandon429]

this thread is the official convention of people who have no work threads, literally if we added up all the remote tanks worked here from the crew and kept for inspection the sum would be zero.

what's handy is that we still do full rip cleans of every system that presents, more new outcomes are coming from private message jobs, our methods move other people's reef animals state to state without loss and log the patterns, and those results have no bearing on your results because this test is aligned oppositely of what we do in every way. there's not even any proof those were cycled rocks above, you can arrange anything you want here and state a reading from anywhere.

using other people's tanks is a handy way to streamline what's reported, as accurate, as true and repeatable.

Lasse, this is the kind of effort I need from you vs coat tailing

Coxey at least appears to have set up an experiment even if it has no bearing on rip cleans at all. That degree of rock matches no cull, no starting arrangement Coxey can find from any working rip clean example. everything is aligned here to fail, and those who do not save other's reef animals are aligned to click like, in step.

 

[brandon429]

lol this is like when Anakin turned on Obi lol. one transferred tank protected by rip cleaning/instant skeptic of the method that built your reef C.

this is the first time a recipient of a rip clean, protected by it, made such an angled post using guaranteed misread alignments, no initial test benchmarking, purposefully undercut surface area plus massive overdose, so many burns in place. hopefully you have a strong grasp on surface area physics for future jobs, if not you have several masters of it here that will be ready to help again, twice.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Avoid Tap if at all possible. Not all water treatment plants are the same. They don’t use the same chemicals to treat water. They basically do have the same procedures though. There are several compounds that are used. In these compounds are heavy metals, ammonia, nitrates, phosphates, silicates, fluoride, Chlorine and various other compounds. Don’t get me wrong, these are great for us humans as far as water treatment but they are not good for our Saltwater tanks especially our saltwater reef tanks. Ammonia, nitrates and phosphates are also excessive nutrients that help to fuel algae issues in the tank. We all know what ammonia will do to fish in our saltwater tanks. Many a times folks will make their own partial water change water and are wandering where these compounds are coming from when all the time they were adding them themselves by using tap water in their partial water changes. Silicates are famous for fueling diatoms in the saltwater tank.
There are several items on the market that claim to help get rid of these compounds in our tap water. They really don’t get rid of them but just bind them so they are not as lethal as they were. They are still there. Things like the heavy metals are always there and we then wonder why the ICP test shows metals. In the beginning there is not much harm but as the tank gets older the tank accumulates more and more of these harmful compounds until finally the tank crashes and then the next thing you know someone is posting a thread asking " why is my reef dead" .
The best bet is to get an RO/DI unit. These units can filter out 99 -100% on these compounds. They contain pre filter units and then the water goes through a reverse osmosis membrane and then though a deionized unit. There are other types of water like RO and distilled that are not as effective as an RO/DI but still better than using tap water.
I had a 360g in which I used my well water with the belief that a whole house and water softener was adequate. The tank worked but I lost things here and there and since using RODI - I see the B I G difference.

 

[happyhourhero]

I didn’t realize people took rip clean seriously.

 

[Little c big D]

this thread is the official convention of people who have no work threads, literally if we added up all the remote tanks worked here from the crew and kept for inspection the sum would be zero.

what's handy is that we still do full rip cleans of every system that presents, more new outcomes are coming from private message jobs, our methods move other people's reef animals state to state without loss and log the patterns, and those results have no bearing on your results because this test is aligned oppositely of what we do in every way. there's not even any proof those were cycled rocks above, you can arrange anything you want here and state a reading from anywhere.

using other people's tanks is a handy way to streamline what's reported, as accurate, as true and repeatable.

Lasse, this is the kind of effort I need from you vs coat tailing

Coxey at least appears to have set up an experiment even if it has no bearing on rip cleans at all. That degree of rock matches no cull, no starting arrangement Coxey can find from any working rip clean example. everything is aligned here to fail, and those who do not save other's reef animals are aligned to click like, in step.

How many pounds per gallon is reccomended for a rip clean? 1lb per gallon is the reccomended amount of rock for a reef tank to with stand normal bio load. He has 4lbs for 4 gallons.

 

[brandon429]

only when they want to move tanks home to home for fifty pages with no loss.


you didn't have a better way we could see, for example. that was a hollow sentiment. hollow means you won't be posting any links that show tank moves, tank upgrades for pages and years that omit sandbed rinsing. accepting proof links from any forum, any era, any source. post anything you can find to show counter options for the reasons people use rip cleans. I have to click show hidden content to read 9/10 posts on this thread, now that's a supporting crowd for sure. this experiment is so valid, so rooted in prior procedure, impressed.

meanwhile, where actual jobs are needing done and people's animals are on the line, rip cleaning persists as the only linkable example you or peers here can source.


has anyone here / critics ever guided let's say a mere ten tank as upgrades/home moves? only ten

post a few of those jobs you did for inspection.

 

[Little c big D]

Avoid Tap if at all possible. Not all water treatment plants are the same. They don’t use the same chemicals to treat water. They basically do have the same procedures though. There are several compounds that are used. In these compounds are heavy metals, ammonia, nitrates, phosphates, silicates, fluoride, Chlorine and various other compounds. Don’t get me wrong, these are great for us humans as far as water treatment but they are not good for our Saltwater tanks especially our saltwater reef tanks. Ammonia, nitrates and phosphates are also excessive nutrients that help to fuel algae issues in the tank. We all know what ammonia will do to fish in our saltwater tanks. Many a times folks will make their own partial water change water and are wandering where these compounds are coming from when all the time they were adding them themselves by using tap water in their partial water changes. Silicates are famous for fueling diatoms in the saltwater tank.
There are several items on the market that claim to help get rid of these compounds in our tap water. They really don’t get rid of them but just bind them so they are not as lethal as they were. They are still there. Things like the heavy metals are always there and we then wonder why the ICP test shows metals. In the beginning there is not much harm but as the tank gets older the tank accumulates more and more of these harmful compounds until finally the tank crashes and then the next thing you know someone is posting a thread asking " why is my reef dead" .
The best bet is to get an RO/DI unit. These units can filter out 99 -100% on these compounds. They contain pre filter units and then the water goes through a reverse osmosis membrane and then though a deionized unit. There are other types of water like RO and distilled that are not as effective as an RO/DI but still better than using tap water.
I had a 360g in which I used my well water with the belief that a whole house and water softener was adequate. The tank worked but I lost things here and there and since using RODI - I see the B I G difference.

My city alone employs 3 water treatment plants. 1 lime softening and 2 ro.

 

[Gedxin]

Subbed to see how this turns out.

 

[Little c big D]

only when they want to move tanks home to home for fifty pages with no loss.


you didn't have a better way we could see, for example. that was a hollow sentiment.

My tank is 40galons and I have approx 41lbs of rocks. This is the same ratio as OPS test. Does that mean my tank cannot be ripped cleaned due to lack of rock?

 

[brandon429]

after this misaligned test is complete, nobody here is going to begin a rinseless tank transfer thread so how does this post help anyone? those who don't assertively take on build jobs live time aren't going to all of a sudden become assertive, they're still evaluating far from the sidelines.

lets say (surprisingly) this test deems the nitrification to be totally killed

how do you apply that to the constant stream of move jobs and tank upgrades needed? there will be silence, gaps where nobody actually does any work with the findings

and filling those gaps for inspection...rip cleaning.

this thread means something only if someone invents a better way to handle tank moves, upgrades and invasion fixes all by no rinsing, or rinsing a different way other than tap (and still getting the cleanliness required for fifty pages of skip cycles with no bottle bac added)

if someone tries to imply the inverse of this test to real world jobs, I'll sub to that to see how that turns out.