Electric shock help!

[Lasse]

that is a dead short and the breaker would trip instantly

I´ll think you are wrong here, Paul - if the tank not was grounded - the same amount of current come back to the neutral as leave the phase if both neutrale and phase was in the water - the GFI would not trip. If there is a distance between neutral and the phase - there is a resistance even in saltwater and the safe will not trip either. We do not know - yet - if it was a 12/24 V DC or a 110/240V AC pump either.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Paul B]

I´ll think you are wrong here, Paul -

Lasse, my friend. I thought I was wrong once, but I was incorrect. But I am correct here.

I said the "Breaker" would trip instantly, not a "GFCI" which is different and you are 100% correct on that.

But the distance does not matter. If you put a hot wire in the water where you live in Sweeden (which you call the phase) and I put the neutral in the sea here in New York. It would still trip the circuit breaker.

Of course, if the breaker was in Sweden, you would have to get up and reset it because I would probably be sleeping.

A dead short is a dead short even if you are in Tunesia, Istanbul or Bayonne New Jersey.

 

[Lasse]

Lasse, my friend. I thought I was wrong once, but I was incorrect. But I am correct here.

I said the "Breaker" would trip instantly, not a "GFCI" which is different and you are 100% correct on that.

But the distance does not matter. If you put a hot wire in the water where you live in Sweeden (which you call the phase) and I put the neutral in the sea here in New York. It would still trip the circuit breaker.

Of course, if the breaker was in Sweden, you would have to get up and reset it because I would probably be sleeping.

A dead short is a dead short even if you are in Tunesia, Istanbul or Bayonne New Jersey.

Your both partly right and terrible wrong IMO

Ohm's law may be expressed mathematically as I=V/R
I is measured in Amps.
V in Volts and
R in ohm

Resistance in saltwater is between 18 and 30 ohms/cm. 35 PSU at 25 degree C conductivity is around 53 mS/cm This corresponds to a resistivity of roughly 18.8 ohms per centimeter. Its 6064 km between New York and Gothenburg = 6064 000 00 cm which giva a resistance of 11 400 320 000 ohm If I am Sweden (240 V) I = 240/11 400 320 000 I = 0.0000000211A - the circuit breaker will not tip. If I am in the US - 110 V - the amperage will be 0.0000000096 A - your breaker will not tip

Back to the real world - if the neutral and the phase was 1 cm apart - in the US with 110 V I will be 110/18,8 = 5,85 A. If the circuit breaker is over 6 A - it will not tip. As I know it - 16 A is normal in the US and if neutral and phase is lesser than 3,6 mm apart the breaker will tip with a 16 A circuit breaker. If the breaker is 10 A - the distance is 5,8 mm - lesser than that the breaker will tip - otherwise not

However - here in Sweden - its a little bit more complicated. We have 240 V in our AC net. It means that if the neutral and phase is 1 cm apart - I will be 240/18,8 A = 12,7 A. Our old standard for circuit breakers is10 A but the new is 16 A. In my apartment the circuit breaker will tip. However if the neutral and phase was more than 1.3 cm (13 mm) apart - it would not tip

I hope my math is correct - it was 55 years since my last math class

Edit: The math could be wrong because I found another figure of 0.2 ohms/m

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Paul B]

Lasse, there are just too many numbers in that post for me to even begin to respond.

Maybe, but you are not taking into consideration the volume of the ocean and the earth under it. . The resistance in the sea would be zero. Unless of course an electric eel crawls out of the Amazon and goes into the sea where it would short itself out. Or trip it's internal GFCI...I think.

But it was more than 55 years since I learned ohms law in trade school. And I'm sure we didn't learn the resistance of sea water. If I did, I would be able to respond in a way that made more sense.

 

[DeSoDo]

@ DeSoDo

Was it a 12/24 V DC or a 110/240 V AC pump you use?
Do you have a ground probe or a grounded titanium heater in your system?
Do you have a GFI in your electrical system?
Was both parts of the power wire in the water?
Did your fuse or your GFI (if there was one) trip?

Sincerely Lasse

I honestly don't know what voltage it was, it's already in the trash and it was already picked up. I have a titanium heater. I do use a grounded power strip. Both parts of the electrical cord were in the water. IDK what a GFI is.

 

[exnisstech]

I honestly don't know what voltage it was, it's already in the trash and it was already picked up. I have a titanium heater. I do use a grounded power strip. Both parts of the electrical cord were in the water. IDK what a GFI is.

Its definitely something you should be familiar with when putting electrical devices in water.

Ground Fault Circuit Interrupters (GFCIs) - Safe Electricity

There are three types of GFCIs. The most often used “receptacle-type” GFCI, similar to a common wall outlet, is the type with which most consumers are familiar. Additionally, circuit breaker GFCIs are often used as replacements for standard circuit breakers and provide GFCI protection to all...

safeelectricity.org

 

[DeSoDo]

Its definitely something you should be familiar with when putting electrical devices in water.

Ground Fault Circuit Interrupters (GFCIs) - Safe Electricity

There are three types of GFCIs. The most often used “receptacle-type” GFCI, similar to a common wall outlet, is the type with which most consumers are familiar. Additionally, circuit breaker GFCIs are often used as replacements for standard circuit breakers and provide GFCI protection to all...

safeelectricity.org

No, I don't have one of those where the tank is located. I have them in my house of course, but near sinks.

 

[exnisstech]

No, I don't have one of those where the tank is located. I have them in my house of course, but near sinks.

May be something to consider for safely reasons. They're easy to install and I believe there are some GFCI power strips if your not comfortable installing one or don't want to hire someone to do it.

 

[DeSoDo]

May be something to consider for safely reasons. They're easy to install and I believe there are some GFCI power strips if your not comfortable installing one or don't want to hire someone to do it.

Yeah, I'll look into the strips. I don't do electrical things like that.

 

[DeSoDo]

Yeah, I'll look into the strips. I don't do electrical things like that.

dang, just looked those up (didn't know that's what they were called). I have 2 of them installed on my shrimp tank wall. I'll swap one out.

 

[Lasse]

Was the cord going direct to the wall outlet like this. This is a 110 V (or 240 V) AC pump

or was it a control box and a power supply between the pump and the outlet at the wall - something like this.

Its a 12 or 24 V DC pump

​

Sincerely Lasse

 

[DeSoDo]

Top Pic. Where i circled is where it burned out and both pieces were in the water.

 

[Lasse]

Probably 110 V and certainly AC. Did not your fuse trip. Still believing you got copper into the aquarium water.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[DeSoDo]

Probably 110 V and certainly AC. Did not your fuse trip. Still believing you got copper into the aquarium water.

Sincerely Lasse

I'll test for it

 

[Dom_P]

Probably 110 V and certainly AC. Did not your fuse trip. Still believing you got copper into the aquarium water.

Sincerely Lasse

I’m pretty sure a dead short like that described would trip a breaker immediately. Breakers in the US are typically 15A but could also be 20A on some home circuits that may require it (air conditioning, electric ovens, etc).

 

[DeSoDo]

I’m pretty sure a dead short like that described would trip a breaker immediately. Breakers in the US are typically 15A but could also be 20A on some home circuits that may require it (air conditioning, electric ovens, etc).

No fuse was tripped.

 

[Dom_P]

No fuse was tripped.

I’d recommend you contact a qualified electrician to have a look at this circuit and also to install a GFI outlet for your personal protection

 

[Dom_P]

One other thing I’d recommend is to inspect/replace your power strip/surge protector as it might be damaged.

 

[Lasse]

I’m pretty sure a dead short like that described would trip a breaker immediately. Breakers in the US are typically 15A but could also be 20A on some home circuits that may require it (air conditioning, electric ovens, etc).

Lasse, there are just too many numbers in that post for me to even begin to respond.

Maybe, but you are not taking into consideration the volume of the ocean and the earth under it. . The resistance in the sea would be zero. Unless of course an electric eel crawls out of the Amazon and goes into the sea where it would short itself out. Or trip it's internal GFCI...I think.

But it was more than 55 years since I learned ohms law in trade school. And I'm sure we didn't learn the resistance of sea water. If I did, I would be able to respond in a way that made more sense.

I found another figure of 0.2 Ohms/m - it means that I do not really knows for an aquarium both i still doubt the example between US and Sweden because of this was true the best weapon of mass destruction would be to just plug in a "hot wire" 240V AC somewhere along a coastal strip and everyone who came into contact with the seawater and ground all over the world would be killed by an electric shock.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Charles2465]

I don't think I have a test for copper

I don't understand, why do you think you had voltage present in the tank?

Because it was plugged in when I left and working, and when I got back home cord was out of the wavemaker and the busted cord that looked burned was still sitting in the tank.

It is possible although very unlikely that the burnt chord has put some nasty chemicals into the water. Although the live stock should indicate this. I speak from experience with a koi pond double wipe out from stray voltage (seized pond pump) and insides were burnt.