ESV B-Ionic 2 Part

[Brian W]

I have read that B-Ionic 2 part (and Magnesium) has trace elements in the formula.
Does anyone know if it also has macro elements as well?

I am wondering if you can successfully run a SPS dominant tank with just B-Ionic and...say Acro Power for amino's without any water changes., along with the correct filtration of course.

Thanks

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I'm not certain what you are defining as macro elements, but bear in mind that "having" the elements (which it does) is not the same as boosting them if low.

Many two parts and Balling products are not designed to boost these, even though they have them. They are designed to keep the method itself from lowering them.

I discuss it here in the context of copper, but it applies to nearly all elements:

http://www.reefedition.com/the-many-methods-for-supplementing-calcium-and-alkalinity/

One issue that has confused some reef keepers, however, is the presence of trace elements. Assuming that these products are actually formulated with every ion such that a true natural seawater residue remained (let’s call this the “ideal” product), then it will necessarily contain such ions as copper. Since copper is elevated in some reef tanks, and is toxic to many invertebrates, reef keepers have wrongly criticized this method as adding more copper. That’s actually not what would happen. Since these products leave a natural seawater residue, and since copper may be elevated in concentration in many reef tanks relative to seawater, then using these “ideal” products will actually LOWER copper levels because when the increase in salinity is corrected, the copper will drop.

For example:

You have copper in your aquarium at 4 ppb and salinity of S=35.

You add a two part additive that over the course of a month raises salinity to S=36, and raises copper to 4.02 ppb.

Then you correct the salinity back to S=35 by diluting everything in the tank with fresh water, and you get a final copper concentration of 3.9 ppb.

Does this happen in real products and not “ideal” products? I have no idea. But the statement by manufacturers that it contains all ions in natural ratios, including copper, should not be viewed as a concern that it is exacerbating a heavy metal problem.

The rise in salinity of these products over time can be very roughly calculated, though there are several reasons why this calculation is only an estimate. For every 1000 meq of alkalinity added in this fashion (and the matching amount of calcium) these products will deliver on the order of 60 grams of other ions to the tank. In a tank with a low calcification demand (defined later to be 18.3 thousand meq of alkalinity per year in a 100 gallon tank (0.4 dKH/day)) this effect will raise the salinity by 3 ppt per year (compared to a normal salinity of S ~35). In a high demand tank (defined later to be 219 thousand meq of alkalinity per year in a 100 gallon tank (4.4 dKH/day)), the salinity will rise by 35 ppt in a year, or approximately doubling the salinity. Consequently, the salinity should be monitored closely in using these types of additives, especially in a tank with high calcification rates.

 

[Brian W]

I am just trying to put together a plan B for dosing ALK, CAL, trace and macro elements. Ive heard the term trace elements and macro elements used here, are they the same or different?
I currently use Triton and its working great! Just a little scared that the product is always hit or miss weather its in stock or now.
I like the idea or no water changing system and its currently working for me now, do not want to switch back to traditional reefing if I can help it.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I am just trying to put together a plan B for dosing ALK, CAL, trace and macro elements. Ive heard the term trace elements and macro elements used here, are they the same or different?
I currently use Triton and its working great! Just a little scared that the product is always hit or miss weather its in stock or now.
I like the idea or no water changing system and its currently working for me now, do not want to switch back to traditional reefing if I can help it.

IMO, the term macro elements comes from agriculture and it should stay there. If there are specific ones that are of concern (say, potassium), then each will have their own issues.

I would not assume that the tank will benefit from any dosing beyond B-ionic, but if you have a lot of growth it may.

B-ionic wont' supplement trace elements more than a tiny water change will, so that may be a place to begin to look. Things like iron, vanadium, etc.

 

[Brian W]

IMO, the term macro elements comes from agriculture and it should stay there. If there are specific ones that are of concern (say, potassium), then each will have their own issues.

I would not assume that the tank will benefit from any dosing beyond B-ionic, but if you have a lot of growth it may.

B-ionic wont' supplement trace elements more than a tiny water change will, so that may be a place to begin to look. Things like iron, vanadium, etc.

Thank you.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

You're welcome.

Happy Reefing!

 

[Seame]

B-ionic wont' supplement trace elements more than a tiny water change will, so

Randy Holmes-Farley if you don' mind what do you consider a tiny water change? It was suggested to me that ESV B Ionic would provide better colors in coral using BRS two part and I would really like to understand what trace elements are in EVS B Ionic vs a std 2 part if any and if its benefical factors are dramatic enough to the extra cost. Secondly what other trace elements would I need to add to say BRS two part to be a closer match.

I have a mixed reef leaning to more sps and acros

Thx
Dave

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

B-ionic wont' supplement trace elements more than a tiny water change will, so

Randy Holmes-Farley if you don' mind what do you consider a tiny water change? It was suggested to me that ESV B Ionic would provide better colors in coral using BRS two part and I would really like to understand what trace elements are in EVS B Ionic vs a std 2 part if any and if its benefical factors are dramatic enough to the extra cost. Secondly what other trace elements would I need to add to say BRS two part to be a closer match.

I have a mixed reef leaning to more sps and acros

Thx
Dave

I've never seen an analysis of what is actually in B-ionic, but if you take their claims at face value, if you are dosing the equivalent of 1.1 dKH per day (and the same volume of the calcium part), you will have accomplished about the same in terms of trace element "supplementation" as one 32% water change over the course of a year.

That's potentially a big deal if something like potassium will otherwise drop by 32%. It's hardly noticeably for things that are rapidly depleted anyway (such as iron).

IMO, it is worth testing trace element supplements (by trial and error effects on the tnak, or by Triton/ICP testing) whether you use B-ionic or a cheaper two part.

 

[Aj.]

@Randy Holmes-Farley , i recently switched to esv b ionic 2 part. I’ve been dosing Red Sea reef energy a and b for awhile now but I’m getting tired of manually dosing. I’m trying to find something to hook up to a doser with my nopox, i found aquavitro fuel but it also provides trace elements. Would i be overdosing trace elements if i dose that along with utilizing b ionic 2 part?

 

[Reefahholic]

@Randy Holmes-Farley , i recently switched to esv b ionic 2 part. I’ve been dosing Red Sea reef energy a and b for awhile now but I’m getting tired of manually dosing. I’m trying to find something to hook up to a doser with my nopox, i found aquavitro fuel but it also provides trace elements. Would i be overdosing trace elements if i dose that along with utilizing b ionic 2 part?

@Randy Holmes-Farley

That’s a good question I’d like to know the answer to. I also wonder if ESV B-Ionic is compatible with the Red Sea Trace Colors program ABCD. Or would this end up over-dosing the tank because ESV has trace elements.? From what I understand, the trace elements are in their correct ratios that basically mimic natural seawater. So these aren’t elevated at all. I’m assuming a tank full of Acro’s would deplete some of these elements quickly and the need to boost some of them might be beneficial. I’m gonna email Bob right now.

 

[Reefahholic]

I don’t know if I worded that right. The question was...”Is it safe to use the Red Sea ABCD Trace Element program with ESV B-Ionic 2-part?”

 

[thrasher]

I don’t know if I worded that right. The question was...”Is it safe to use the Red Sea ABCD Trace Element program with ESV B-Ionic 2-part?”

Following- I am also curious who is dosing Red Sea ABCD with ESV B-Ionic 2 part, and what their routine is and results they may have

 

[Reefahholic]

Following- I am also curious who is dosing Red Sea ABCD with ESV B-Ionic 2 part, and what their routine is and results they may have

We’ll I just started. So you can add me to the list. I’m under dosing by a lot though. I’m dosing 1/2 the recommended amount for my total volume and even that I tried to under-shoot. Gotta play it safe especially with Part A.

 

[ReeferTX]

Same here.. dosing b ionic 2 part and RS ABCD. I need answers too..
Is anyone dosing magnesium on the daily? If so I'm trying to go the no water change method, cuz I'm lazy, and have been dosing ESV 50 ml a day of alk/cal and 2 ml daily mag. Is that the correct ratio of mag to be dosing?

 

[X-37B]

I dose esv 2 part, strontium, and use dsr trace.
I test for the big 3 + strontium potassium iodine.
This has kept everthing stable for over a year in my nano amd now in my 120.
Dsr trace has;

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I don’t know if I worded that right. The question was...”Is it safe to use the Red Sea ABCD Trace Element program with ESV B-Ionic 2-part?”

Yes.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

@Randy Holmes-Farley

That’s a good question I’d like to know the answer to. I also wonder if ESV B-Ionic is compatible with the Red Sea Trace Colors program ABCD. Or would this end up over-dosing the tank because ESV has trace elements.? From what I understand, the trace elements are in their correct ratios that basically mimic natural seawater. So these aren’t elevated at all. I’m assuming a tank full of Acro’s would deplete some of these elements quickly and the need to boost some of them might be beneficial. I’m gonna email Bob right now.

B-ionic does not boost trace elements (which is different than containing them). It is exactly like boosting alk and calcium, and doing a very tiny water change. No more.

There should be no conflict with other properly designed trace element supplements.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Same here.. dosing b ionic 2 part and RS ABCD. I need answers too..
Is anyone dosing magnesium on the daily? If so I'm trying to go the no water change method, cuz I'm lazy, and have been dosing ESV 50 ml a day of alk/cal and 2 ml daily mag. Is that the correct ratio of mag to be dosing?

You usually should not need extra magnesium when using B-ionic unless your salt mix for water changes is lower than your target (which doesn’t apply to you) , and you will never “need” it as frequently as daily. But if you know you need it, it is fine to add extra magnesium.

 

[Reefahholic]

B-ionic does not boost trace elements (which is different than containing them). It is exactly like boosting alk and calcium, and doing a very tiny water change. No more.

There should be no conflict with other properly designed trace element supplements.

Randy I reached out to Bob Stark again. I really like that guy. He’s very transparent about his products and it really gives me confidence when dosing ESV. There’s not very many people like him around. I wanted to included our second email so that other reefers can reference this in the future and better understand ESV B-Ionic.

Hi Jared,

I'm glad the B-Ionic 2 Part is working out for you and thanks for spreading the word! You are correct in that the amount of certain elements provided by the product may not keep up with demand, although significant trace elements are added to our systems simply by feeding. Depending on how much of the 2 part is added, certain major elements can stay in the ballpark with the 2 part alone..like magnesium, potassium, and sulfate. Others, as you suggest, are probably not being added in sufficient quantity so we suggest once per week additions of our B-Ionic Strontium and B-Ionic Iodide. In addition, for tanks over 4 months old and more populated, we recommend daily additions of our B-Ionic Transition Elements which provide very low doses of Iron, Manganese, and Zinc. We also have a Transition Elements Plus product that supplies the same amounts of these elements but also adds citric acid and ascorbic acid for carbon dosing if the aquarist is battling higher nitrates. I'm not too keen on supplying trace elements which can be required by non calcifying inhabitants (macro algae and soft corals) based on calcification rates alone, but I see some of the logic behind it. My guess is the Red Sea Colors are probably safe to use with our B-Ionic, but don't know enough about their product line to say with absolute certainty. All of the above mentioned ESV additives, in addition to the 2 Part, have been formulated to fall a little under the radar of trace element overdose and based on our testing and feedback from customers who have run ICP, we are confident the dosages are safe. Hope this info helps and thanks again for using our products!

Bob Stark

ESV Aquarium Products Inc.

 

[Reefahholic]

Yes.

Randy, I have since started the Red Sea Trace Color program with much caution! My 8 month old system is using about 26mL of ESV Alkalinity and Calcium. Red Sea calls to dose 1mL per every 20 ppm of Calcium consumed. My tank currently consumes 20 ppm of Calcium in about 3.6 days. I called it 4 days to be on the safer side. The dose for my system is 0.75/mL daily. So I've cut that in half which makes it 0.37mL daily. Again, staying on the safe side! I only dose Part A twice a week (which has a lead element of Iodine). I will verify the doses with ICP and dose accordingly. Hopefully moving up to the require dose if it's safe.