Feeding microbes

[CoralClasher]

I would strongly encourage you get a copy od Forest Rohwer's "COral Reefs in the Microbial Seas" (kinndle is $10, paperback is $16) DeGoeij's work on sponges is important too (links below). It matters a great deal what kind of bacteria are promoted in reef systems. Some types of DOC will promote heterotrophic bacteria and potentially pathogenic shifts in coral microbiomes. Here's a list of refferences and some videos you may find informative:

Forest Rohwer "Coral Reefs in the Microbial Seas"


Changing Seas - Mysterious Microbes


Nitrogen cycling in hte coral holobiont


BActeria and Sponges


DOC stuff:

Indirect effects of algae on coral: algae‐mediated, microbe‐induced coral mortality
Coral seperated from algae with a .02 µm filter die. Treatment with aampicillan prevents death.
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1111/j.1461-0248.2006.00937.x
Influence of coral and algal exudates on microbially mediated reef metabolism.
Coral DOC improves oxygen (autotrophy), algae DOC reduces oxygen (heterotrophy).
https://peerj.com/articles/108/?utm_source=TrendMD&utm_campaign=PeerJ_TrendMD_0&utm_medium=TrendMD
Role of elevated organic carbon levels and microbial activity in coral mortality
http://www.int-res.com/articles/meps2006/314/m314p119.pdf
Effects of Coral Reef Benthic Primary Producers on Dissolved Organic Carbon and Microbial Activity
Algae releases significantly more DOC into the water than coral.
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0027973
Pathologies and mortality rates caused by organic carbon and nutrient stressors in three Caribbean coral species.
Starch and sugars (doc) caused coral death but not high nitrates, phosphates or ammonium.
http://www.int-res.com/articles/meps2005/294/m294p173.pdf
Sponge stuff:

Element cycling on tropical coral reefs.
This is Jasper de Geoij's ground breaking research on reef sponges. (The introduction is in Dutch but the content is in English.)
https://www.rug.nl/research/portal/files/14555035/13completethesis.pdf
Sponge symbionts and the marine P cycle
https://www.pnas.org/content/112/14/4191
Phosphorus sequestration in the form of polyphosphate by microbial symbionts in marine sponges
https://www.pnas.org/content/112/14/4381
Differential recycling of coral and algal dissolved organic matter via the sponge loop.
Sponges treat DOC from algae differently than DOC from corals
https://besjournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/1365-2435.12758
Surviving in a Marine Desert The Sponge Loop Retains Resources Within Coral Reefs
Dissolved organic carbon and nitrogen are quickly processed by sponges and released back into the reef food web in hours as carbon and nitrogen rich detritus.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/279061640_2013_deGoeij_Science_Sponge_loop
Natural Diet of Coral-Excavating Sponges Consists Mainly of Dissolved Organic Carbon (DOC)
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3934968/
The Role of Marine Sponges in Carbon and Nitrogen Cycles of COral Reefs and Nearshore Environments.
https://search.proquest.com/openvie...9d1e5/1?pq-origsite=gscholar&cbl=18750&diss=y

Well I’m still confused. What are your thoughts on mixed Macroalgae refugium? I’ve been struggling with keeping the macros clean and growing. I’m tempted to just get rid of macros altogether. Maybe fill refugium with corals and still run reverse schedule?

 

[Timfish]

Well I’m still confused. What are your thoughts on mixed Macroalgae refugium? I’ve been struggling with keeping the macros clean and growing. I’m tempted to just get rid of macros altogether. Maybe fill refugium with corals and still run reverse schedule?

I think the research is pretty clear; get rid of macro algae.

What's likely saved aquarists that utillise algae is the amount of hydrophilic and hydrophobic DOC released by algae varies by species and some species like chaeto are less noxious, coupled with cryptic sponges that are processing labile forms of DOC 1000X faster than the bacterioplankton skimmers remove. It seems to me the success attributed to skimmers is likely due the cryptic sponges every system has.

There are types of DOC that are beneficial for corals and types that are not. If we are to keep our systems, fish and corals for the decades or centuries they should live it seems to me we need to avoid the parctices and techniques that ignore or compramise the microbial processes needed to accomplish that.

 

[CoralClasher]

I think the research is pretty clear; get rid of macro algae.

What's likely saved aquarists that utillise algae is the amount of hydrophilic and hydrophobic DOC released by algae varies by species and some species like chaeto are less noxious, coupled with cryptic sponges that are processing labile forms of DOC 1000X faster than the bacterioplankton skimmers remove. It seems to me the success attributed to skimmers is likely due the cryptic sponges every system has.

There are types of DOC that are beneficial for corals and types that are not. If we are to keep our systems, fish and corals for the decades or centuries they should live it seems to me we need to avoid the parctices and techniques that ignore or compramise the microbial processes needed to accomplish that.

Thank you for clearing that up for me.

 

[Dkmoo]

I would strongly encourage you get a copy od Forest Rohwer's "COral Reefs in the Microbial Seas" (kinndle is $10, paperback is $16) DeGoeij's work on sponges is important too (links below). It matters a great deal what kind of bacteria are promoted in reef systems. Some types of DOC will promote heterotrophic bacteria and potentially pathogenic shifts in coral microbiomes. Here's a list of refferences and some videos you may find informative:

Forest Rohwer "Coral Reefs in the Microbial Seas"


Changing Seas - Mysterious Microbes


Nitrogen cycling in hte coral holobiont


BActeria and Sponges


DOC stuff:

Indirect effects of algae on coral: algae‐mediated, microbe‐induced coral mortality
Coral seperated from algae with a .02 µm filter die. Treatment with aampicillan prevents death.
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1111/j.1461-0248.2006.00937.x
Influence of coral and algal exudates on microbially mediated reef metabolism.
Coral DOC improves oxygen (autotrophy), algae DOC reduces oxygen (heterotrophy).
https://peerj.com/articles/108/?utm_source=TrendMD&utm_campaign=PeerJ_TrendMD_0&utm_medium=TrendMD
Role of elevated organic carbon levels and microbial activity in coral mortality
http://www.int-res.com/articles/meps2006/314/m314p119.pdf
Effects of Coral Reef Benthic Primary Producers on Dissolved Organic Carbon and Microbial Activity
Algae releases significantly more DOC into the water than coral.
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0027973
Pathologies and mortality rates caused by organic carbon and nutrient stressors in three Caribbean coral species.
Starch and sugars (doc) caused coral death but not high nitrates, phosphates or ammonium.
http://www.int-res.com/articles/meps2005/294/m294p173.pdf
Sponge stuff:

Element cycling on tropical coral reefs.
This is Jasper de Geoij's ground breaking research on reef sponges. (The introduction is in Dutch but the content is in English.)
https://www.rug.nl/research/portal/files/14555035/13completethesis.pdf
Sponge symbionts and the marine P cycle
https://www.pnas.org/content/112/14/4191
Phosphorus sequestration in the form of polyphosphate by microbial symbionts in marine sponges
https://www.pnas.org/content/112/14/4381
Differential recycling of coral and algal dissolved organic matter via the sponge loop.
Sponges treat DOC from algae differently than DOC from corals
https://besjournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/1365-2435.12758
Surviving in a Marine Desert The Sponge Loop Retains Resources Within Coral Reefs
Dissolved organic carbon and nitrogen are quickly processed by sponges and released back into the reef food web in hours as carbon and nitrogen rich detritus.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/279061640_2013_deGoeij_Science_Sponge_loop
Natural Diet of Coral-Excavating Sponges Consists Mainly of Dissolved Organic Carbon (DOC)
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3934968/
The Role of Marine Sponges in Carbon and Nitrogen Cycles of COral Reefs and Nearshore Environments.
https://search.proquest.com/openvie...9d1e5/1?pq-origsite=gscholar&cbl=18750&diss=y

This is interesting. I always thought "DOC" helps feed the microbiom and the food chain and therefore is generally "good" but this completely flips it upside down. Is DOC bad now? Or is it just a double edged sword bc we don't know if its the good or bad bacteria that is feeding.

One point I think? this made clear is the relationship between dying coral and nuisance algae growth. I had thought that algae growing on dying coral bc the receding coral left prime real estate for algae to take over, but this first video actually showed that the algae growing is actually whats killing the coral via the whole "doc->bad bacteria ->low o2 -> suffocating coral" negative feedback loop. So really flipped the causal relationships - its not that a dying coral is causing nuisance algae, its nuisance algae kill coral.

@brandon429 - I think this is further gives support to your point on using peroxide - even just spot treating in tank, not only does it kill the algae, but also it kills the bacteria along that "algae/coral tissue" border thats suffocating the coral. I don't know if you remember I had always had concerns on the detrimental effect of localized h202 treating on biodiversity / beneficial bacteria but this new information I think has convince a me otherwise.

Right?

Last question - how does dosing live phyto fit in this equation? Does that release doc the same bad way?

 

[Timfish]

. . . Or is it just a double edged sword bc we don't know if its the good or bad bacteria that is feeding. . . . Last question - how does dosing live phyto fit in this equation? Does that release doc the same bad way?

It's definitely a two edge sword. DOC as I understand it is comprised of literally thousands of differentl compunds, some good, some bad, some probably not much of an issue either way under typical conditions.

Not sure about all types of phytoplankton for all corals. But, it's not growing and reproducing and releasing sugars in our tanks like the various nuisance algae are. Depending on the species of phytoplankton It may be a much better choice than the prepared foods reefers add that have negligable or deleterious effects on corals (1) and there are species specific prefferences (2) (3)