Fish Nutrition – Short Bites

[ISpeakForTheSeas]

Do you think NLS meets this low threshold. It’s the 3rd ingredient. Doesn’t tell you much. I emailed NLS they said it’s proprietary info how much wheat flour was in their product and didnt tell me how they came to this amount or was it just based on the minimum amount needed to hold the pellet together. That would be my guess whatever that number is. I am leaning towards avoiding wheat all together do to lack of good definition of what is safe. On the other hand I hate to give up on an otherwise quality pellet like NLS.Any other recommendations or thoughts are appreciated.

I honestly don't know. I'd assume it's fine if you use it as a supplemental feed rather than a primary feed (like you probably should be if you're feeding it to predators), but it may be too much as a primary feed. To my knowledge, this isn't a heavily studied topic (and how much wheat is used is proprietary info), so I can't really give even a ballpark guess/estimate here - sorry.

Personally, I'd either keep using the NLS pellets as a supplement or replace it with fresh/frozen meaty food that's mixed with a bunch of different kinds of macroalgae (either refugium-grown macroalgae or - barring that - powdered).

 

[JPM San Diego]

I have a Blue Tang (Paracanthurus hepatus) with HLLE. Is nutrient deficiency a possible cause? If so, what is missing in the diet?
I do not use carbon. The tang is fed three times per per day with frozen cubes. Each meal has one "emerald entree" cube and one of the "brown" cubes in the variety pack. I also feed 4 sheets of Nori per day.

 

[vetteguy53081]

NLS is a good pellet but I do not use based on some of the additives but they all have some content. Here is TDO chroma-boost

 

[Finzin]

NLS is a good pellet but I do not use based on some of the additives but they all have some content. Here is TDO chroma-boost

Vetteguy,
Which additives in the NLS do you find are a problem?
Thanks.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Vetteguy,
Which additives in the NLS do you find are a problem?
Thanks.

The amount of chlorides, wheat and wheat flour

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Thanks for your time and reply. Can you define low protein diet by a percentage? The gel diets I looked at have around 50 percent or more protein. When you say squid diet do you mean squid as the main protein source?What dose of vitamin E are you recommending? When you say large carnivore are you referring to 13/14 inch Trigger?

I've not seen a gel diet that was 50% protein, I think that might be as "dry matter basis". I use "as fed" as the basis, as adding water to a food is a good way to lower the calories. I looked up the Mazuri gel diet I use and it is 9.6% protein for herbivores, 15.6% protein for omnivores and 22% for carnivores.

Squid is a good whole seafood to help limit calories, it is only 1.5% fat and 16% protein. It can't be 100% of a fish's diet, but the more you feed, the fewer calories the fish will get.

Vitamin E is tough to calculate, the normal rate is 100 IU per KG of food, but that can be doubled in the case where supplementation is required.

I would call a triggerfish more of an "omnivore". For "large carnivore", I'm talking more about fish that eat other fish whole - groupers, lionfish, etc.

Jay

 

[ReefGeezer]

Thanks @Jay Hemdal. I'm just wondering what impact the food available in the display has on the foods that need to be added. Do the pods, sponges, and other small organisms, and even algae play much of a roll in fulfilling food needs in very mature systems, particularly those that employ a lot of live rock?

 

[Finzin]

I've not seen a gel diet that was 50% protein, I think that might be as "dry matter basis". I use "as fed" as the basis, as adding water to a food is a good way to lower the calories. I looked up the Mazuri gel diet I use and it is 9.6% protein for herbivores, 15.6% protein for omnivores and 22% for carnivores.

Squid is a good whole seafood to help limit calories, it is only 1.5% fat and 16% protein. It can't be 100% of a fish's diet, but the more you feed, the fewer calories the fish will get.

Vitamin E is tough to calculate, the normal rate is 100 IU per KG of food, but that can be doubled in the case where supplementation is required.

I would call a triggerfish more of an "omnivore". For "large carnivore", I'm talking more about fish that eat other fish whole - groupers, lionfish, etc.

Jay

Jay thanks for your clarification! So you would use the omnivore mazuri gel diet for Triggers? Is this enough protein for the fish to thrive on and hopefully modify the hepatic lipidosis risk?I would assume it gets back to the dry/ wet matter basis and how you calculate it. I could also feed the squid. I am not trying to make this more complicated than it is. I would like to feed mostly LRS Frozen Food 80percent of the time and NLS 20 percent of the time and be done with it but will do what’s best for the fish over the long term. So as an omnivore how often would you feed the Trigger?
Thanks for your time interest and knowledge.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Jay thanks for your clarification! So you would use the omnivore mazuri gel diet for Triggers? Is this enough protein for the fish to thrive on and hopefully modify the hepatic lipidosis risk?I would assume it gets back to the dry/ wet matter basis and how you calculate it. I could also feed the squid. I am not trying to make this more complicated than it is. I would like to feed mostly LRS Frozen Food 80percent of the time and NLS 20 percent of the time and be done with it but will do what’s best for the fish over the long term. So as an omnivore how often would you feed the Trigger?
Thanks for your time interest and knowledge.

I think you will find that Mazuri gel diet is too "fractious" to be used to feed big triggerfish in a home aquarium, they will grind it up and spit pieces all over the tank. I just used that as an example, as it is one of the few aquarium fish diets that was developed from actual aquarium research (and not just extrapolated from fisheries science).

Jay

 

[Finzin]

I've not seen a gel diet that was 50% protein, I think that might be as "dry matter basis". I use "as fed" as the basis, as adding water to a food is a good way to lower the calories. I looked up the Mazuri gel diet I use and it is 9.6% protein for herbivores, 15.6% protein for omnivores and 22% for carnivores.

Squid is a good whole seafood to help limit calories, it is only 1.5% fat and 16% protein. It can't be 100% of a fish's diet, but the more you feed, the fewer calories the fish will get.

Vitamin E is tough to calculate, the normal rate is 100 IU per KG of food, but that can be doubled in the case where supplementation is required.

I would call a triggerfish more of an "omnivore". For "large carnivore", I'm talking more about fish that eat other fish whole - groupers, lionfish, etc.

Jay

I think you will find that Mazuri gel diet is too "fractious" to be used to feed big triggerfish in a home aquarium, they will grind it up and spit pieces all over the tank. I just used that as an example, as it is one of the few aquarium fish diets that was developed from actual aquarium research (and not just extrapolated from fisheries science).

Jay

In your experience what diet worked best for the long term health of the Triggers in the public aquarium setting?

 

[ACW33]

This was super informative. Thank you @Jay Hemdal.

It definitely sparked me to study this area more. I try to provide high quality food, in variety, while also paying attention to each animal’s natural requirements, but this provided thinking points I haven’t considered before.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

In your experience what diet worked best for the long term health of the Triggers in the public aquarium setting?

Some gel diet of course. Then, squid, shrimp and smelt supplemented with thiamin and vitamin E.

I’m thinking back and I don’t recall ever losing a trigger to fatty liver disease.

Jay

 

[Midrats]

Thanks Jay!

 

[Finzin]

Some gel diet of course. Then, squid, shrimp and smelt supplemented with thiamin and vitamin E.

I’m thinking back and I don’t recall ever losing a trigger to fatty liver disease.

Jay

I am glad to hear you have no recollection of a Trigger dying of fatty liver disease. Thank for the dietary recommendations and answering all my questions.

 

[ReefHog]

I’ve always fed predators squid, octopus, shrimp and salmon from the market. All are sources of vitamin E. Not sure if it is enough though but aside from injury’s and a velvet disease outbreak in 2018 my large fish always lived 6 years plus. My current porcupine fish, although not a typical predator, is over four years now. The one that died in the velvet outbreak was 8.

 

[Raul-7]

What about Repashy foods? I know they're marketed for freshwater fish - BUT the ingredients are high quality and very little fillers are used when compared to all the common dry pellet brands out there.

For example

Soilent Green-
INGREDIENTS: Spirulina Algae, Algae Meal (Chlorella), Krill Meal, Pea Protein Isolate, Black Soldier Fly Larvae Meal, Rice Protein Concentrate, Fish Meal, Alfalfa Leaf Meal, Dried Brewer’s Yeast, Coconut Meal, Stabilized Rice Bran, Flax Seed Meal, Schizochytrium Algae, Dried Seaweed Meal, Lecithin, Locust Bean Gum, Citric Acid, Taurine, Stinging Nettle, Garlic, Dried Kelp...

OR

Community Plus-
INGREDIENTS: Krill Meal, Alfalfa Leaf Meal, Squid Meal, Pea Protein Isolate, Fish Meal, Stabilized Rice Bran, Dried Seaweed Meal, Dried Brewer’s Yeast, Coconut Meal, Algae Meal, Lecithin, Locust Bean Gum, Citric Acid, Taurine, Stinging Nettle, Garlic, Dried Kelp...


Would these pose any problems to marine fish?

 

[vetteguy53081]

What about Repashy foods? I know they're marketed for freshwater fish - BUT the ingredients are high quality and very little fillers are used when compared to all the common dry pellet brands out there.

For example

Soilent Green-
INGREDIENTS: Spirulina Algae, Algae Meal (Chlorella), Krill Meal, Pea Protein Isolate, Black Soldier Fly Larvae Meal, Rice Protein Concentrate, Fish Meal, Alfalfa Leaf Meal, Dried Brewer’s Yeast, Coconut Meal, Stabilized Rice Bran, Flax Seed Meal, Schizochytrium Algae, Dried Seaweed Meal, Lecithin, Locust Bean Gum, Citric Acid, Taurine, Stinging Nettle, Garlic, Dried Kelp...

OR

Community Plus-
INGREDIENTS: Krill Meal, Alfalfa Leaf Meal, Squid Meal, Pea Protein Isolate, Fish Meal, Stabilized Rice Bran, Dried Seaweed Meal, Dried Brewer’s Yeast, Coconut Meal, Algae Meal, Lecithin, Locust Bean Gum, Citric Acid, Taurine, Stinging Nettle, Garlic, Dried Kelp...


Would these pose any problems to marine fish?

I wouldnt say these would pose a problem but the analysis is similar to dog food and chicken feed. As Jay stated, these fish are meat eaters and require fats and aminos not found whole in such foods.
These are meal by products, grain and gums.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

What about Repashy foods? I know they're marketed for freshwater fish - BUT the ingredients are high quality and very little fillers are used when compared to all the common dry pellet brands out there.

For example

Soilent Green-
INGREDIENTS: Spirulina Algae, Algae Meal (Chlorella), Krill Meal, Pea Protein Isolate, Black Soldier Fly Larvae Meal, Rice Protein Concentrate, Fish Meal, Alfalfa Leaf Meal, Dried Brewer’s Yeast, Coconut Meal, Stabilized Rice Bran, Flax Seed Meal, Schizochytrium Algae, Dried Seaweed Meal, Lecithin, Locust Bean Gum, Citric Acid, Taurine, Stinging Nettle, Garlic, Dried Kelp...

OR

Community Plus-
INGREDIENTS: Krill Meal, Alfalfa Leaf Meal, Squid Meal, Pea Protein Isolate, Fish Meal, Stabilized Rice Bran, Dried Seaweed Meal, Dried Brewer’s Yeast, Coconut Meal, Algae Meal, Lecithin, Locust Bean Gum, Citric Acid, Taurine, Stinging Nettle, Garlic, Dried Kelp...


Would these pose any problems to marine fish?

Repashy foods are fine for marine fish as long as you feed the appropriate type to the animals you have. Internally, there is not much different between marine and freshwater fish - same proteins , etc. Dietary needs vary by species of course.
The Mazuri gel diets I feed are not segregated by FW and SW.
Jay