Fish prices are insane!

[35ppt]

Redacted

 

[K7BMG]

Sorry your statement has no basis in research or reality. Just Google the airlines parked planes and look at the cost of airfreight through non-passenger sources. There are pages and pages on the Internet about the broken supply chain and how planes are flying empty just to keep routes in Europe and other areas. Prices can not fall below the landed cost period unless you want the supply chain to go bankrupt and disappear. Please research the concept of landed cost. It is the price of the product plus the cost of delivery to the final location. If you buy 100 $2.00 fish the product is $200.00 now the freight for that same shipment use to cost $100.00 so landed cost is now $300.00 or $3.00 per live fish. If some of the fish die in transport you now divide the cost by the survivors. Now the cost per fish goes up.

In the current market the airlines are bleeding millions of dollars a month so to keep the door open they raise prices on freight, people, and currently overhead by parking planes. Right now short trips of a few hundred miles cost as much as transcontinental flights due to all the factors of having to pay for planes and employees you can't keep busy. The airlines are just getting hammered like no one else right now. In this environment the local store owner has to decide to keep the doors open and sell product at a cost that allows them to survive or just give up and close. Many long term businesses are just going to close and some of those very likely will be airlines.

Please review the concepts of supply and demand before assuming the poor local store owner is daddy warbucks and is just squeezing every penny they can from the customer. The vast majority of store owners are hobbiest who have fallen for the dream of making a living doing what they love. At some point many of them learn to charge what it cost to survive or gother bankrupt. I'll bet you World Wide Corals is wishing they did not have the cost of the their new store weighing on them so heavy right now. This is an unprecedented upheaval of the market and supply chain that has never been experienced like this before.

If prices are just to high just sit on the sidelines until you can afford to continue. This is a Hobby not a necessity. I am pulling for the business owner cause I am one and I have weathered storms before including some ugly ones in the aquarium industry. I am no longer in the aquarium industry for a reason and it is economics!

Ok I guess I ruffled your feathers and am sorry for that. Did not intend to do so.

But you also did not comprehend my writing.
I do not wish to attack you, and my response here is not and should not be taken as one but I will defend myself.

So in my defense.
I am also a business owner and started my company in 2007 and got hit with the recession of 2008. (My timing was perfect on that one.)

I did not, nor have I implied the LFS is price gouging on purpose nor taking unfair advantage. Merely that's where the finger is being pointed. Yes at my LFS and for the most part here on R2R as well, but I see more complaints and accusations than facts.
Whether or not its true or not I don't know.

I also clearly said that I wanted facts not fiction and so stated that I have not witnessed a rise in cost of flights and shipping that I have personally observed.

I also clearly asked for the people that are (in fact) in the know, and that write the checks, to prove this instead of speculation. So we can understand where the increases actually are coming from.

As JaimeAdams stated, the last batch of livestock ordered, the shipping cost pre-coved-19 was 2.5 times less than today.

I used to make office furniture and it went out the factory door with profit at $300 a desk and was sold on the retail floor for $1,250.00 on sale from $1600.00 as each person took a cut along the way. So I know full well that the cost of an item increases as it goes down the chain.

This also works in reverse. If the item is not purchased then no more are ordered from the retailer and so on all the way back down the line.

This is called capitalism and it works in both directions.

99 percent of the people do not understand this simple fact of life.
Capitalism is only ever perceived in one direction, that the seller is the bad guy, with no responsibility or FAULT on the buyer.
Well guess what, the buyer had a choice, and if they so choose to blank themselves that's solely on them and have no one else to blame.

My choice though seemingly unpopular is not to buy at 2-3 times the normal cost.
I do not do this in business nor my personal life.

As an electrical contractor I buy a lot of materials, I can't pay 2-3 times the normal cost because of shipping, and still be competitive.

Projects I currently have under contract that I am legally bound to complete, have the real potential to hit me very hard on any shipping charge increases, but so far there have been minor increases maybe 1% not 2.5 times the cost. But I did not reference this as my materials that I know of don't use air cargo, so I am not in that world, and have no right to comment. Thus the question posed.

Bids I currently have out there will have to be retracted if I see a major increase in the materials or cost to ship them. That or I will have to revise the numbers to accommodate the increase, but then the owners and or general contractors I work for will most likely postpone or cancel the project.

So trust me when I say that I am aware of the situation here.

In my world, I have not currently experienced a 2.5 time increase in shipping or material costs so far. Is it around the corner? I don't know, but my gut says yes increases will come for sure. When and how much remains to be seen.

 

[mattzang]

Caribbean species ?

the normal skunk shrimp we're used to is Lysmata amboinensis

there's a kind that looks very similar from the atlantic ocean that's Lysmata grabhami

i saw the same pair on DD a few days ago and was shocked, then noticed they were Caribbean

 

[Costareefer]

Idk what DD was selling but the common skunk cleaner is Lysmata amboinensis:

And there is the Atlantic Cleaner Shrimp Lysmata grabhami:

/ I would also mention that there is no such thing as "paired" shrimp. They're hermaphrodites that will breed as long as there are two in a tank. No need to pay a premium for a "pair".

I thought you were talking clownfish. My bad lol

 

[Reeffragger]

.

If you’re not suffering the economic blow then you’re living in a bubble for now. I don’t think you understand the effect of high unemployment for all sectors of the economy in the long run. You’re telling me about what’s happening over a short time. Real unemployment is much higher than 15% and the blows being suffered now won’t truly manifest in the overall economy for months. Like I said I made a long term projection. And yeah I think the hobby will see a massive hit.

Na not living ina bubble I do work that will ALWAYS be needed.. Always.. Its not something that just stops for me. Lol. Unless a nuclear war happens ill always have business. Same for my mom. She works ina data center from amazon.. A job like that isnt going to end unless thr building ends up infected or something. The data center though isnt going to just up and shutdown though. Itll never happen not with all that important data stored in fact her hours have increased lol.

Anyway i wont reply back to dont bother replying to this. Not going to argue over your paranoia or what bubble you think i live in.


On topic i went to petco today for sand.. and they finally got shipments of fish in. And they were all sold within seconds of going in the tanks LOL

 

[ThRoewer]

I would also mention that there is no such thing as "paired" shrimp. They're hermaphrodites that will breed as long as there are two in a tank. No need to pay a premium for a "pair".

That isn't entirely true in this generality as many shrimp and crabs are gonochoric = having one fixed sex throughout life. And not all are trivial to sex and pair.

DD's "bonded pairs" of Lysmata shrimp are certainly a scam, that much is a fact. But getting and maintaining a breeding pair isn't as simple as you think as these guys are not hermaphrodites throughout their life but go through 3 life stages in their reproductive function.
They start out as functional males.
Then, after a certain time, they become true hermaphrodites.
Ultimately they will only be female.
So if you get a pair of two individuals of the same age, in the end, you will end up with just two females who can no longer lay eggs because they lack the male function. For that reason, it is best to make pairs of a large (= older) and a small (= younger) Lysmata shrimp or keep them in larger groups with a variety of sizes.

 

[35ppt]

Redacted

 

[Lowell Lemon]

@K7BMG
We agree. I was just trying to show you the inside of the aquarium industry and the affect of landed costs in this market.
I am now a contractor in the counter top industry. Corian quartz, solid surface and granite. I also have built my own shops from the bottom up and finished a couple of houses. You are in a tough trade on contracts that are a year or more in advance. I am usually only a couple of months out. Both our trades are very price stable in comparison to the pet trade!

 

[joe0813]

Id love to say boycott the hobby until prices come back to normal, but we all know thats not going to happen. People will continue to buy regardless of pricing

 

[jp_75]

THE ONLY WAY TO COMBAT THE PRICE HIKE IS TO NOT BUY.
i have time, i will wait.

 

[ThRoewer]

THE ONLY WAY TO COMBAT THE PRICE HIKE IS TO NOT BUY.
i have time, i will wait.

This may not give you the outcome you desire. If the demand dries up many suppliers may decide it is no longer worth the effort and go out of business. That may just jack up the prices more and severely limit the selection.
Keep in mind that this is no longer a thriving market but an industry under water and on top of that threatened by legislators who think all wildlife trade should be banned.
I think we need to be very careful.
I wouldn't buy crazy overpriced fish and corals, but if I want a fish I rather buy it while I still can because I don't know when they will be available again, if ever.

 

[cd459]

Caribbean species ?

Lysmata amboinensis is the common skunk cleaner. The pair on DD that sold for $200 was Lysmata grabhami. Different species/different availability so different prices.

 

[caver]

Finally visited my LFS after 6 weeks cause of covid-19 and was looking to buy a nice blue throat trigger male..they usually run around $69 and I almost fell down when I saw the price today at $158...these prices are insane, not only is this virus going to drive business bankruptcies but the pricing surely will

I want to share my two cents coming from a person working for a wholesale. The current state of things is as follows freight was at one time around $5 per kilo this changed depending on where the livestock comes from. The current freight costs are $15 per kilo and up so yes fish prices have gone up significantly and will be higher for a long time to come, the fish themselves have not increased on our end just the freight to get them into the US. Also with freight prices having gone up that isn't even the worse of it right now the ability to get livestock in is very challenging. Some countries at the moment are not exporting non essential items, cargo space is very very limited. When we are able to finally secure an order that can be exported we are told it will be on one flight than the flight will change several times before we can secure room in the cargo. As an example the recent livestock or had its flight times and days changed several times before it was confirmed. I would love to say this is short term but the reality is until there is more people flying internationally there is very limited cargo space available and prices will stay extremely high. My ultimate suggestion is talk with your LFS have them reach out to their wholesaler to get more information every wholesaler may have a different take but this is ours.

We will continue to provide fish at the lowest cost possible and keep the quality and health of livestock the highest possible we can.

 

[EMeyer]

One factor I havent seen discussed (sorry if I missed it) is that many of the wholesalers and importers are located in LA. And LA is locked down for the next 3 months. This is making operations very difficult for wholesalers, even when they can get a shipment in.

In the long term, post covid, I really hope some wholesalers look into moving operations out of LA. Pandemics arent the only things that hit massive urban centers harder than the rest of the world. I know proximity to shipping hubs is also important, but even aside from pandemics, the cost of living and commercial leases in LA and similar areas greatly increase costs for these companies. In the post pandemic world, I'm hoping someone will do the math and move operations to somewhere more stable and affordable...

 

[azreefkeeper]

I am in Phoenix.

I live in Phoenix also Ipsouth. Where do you buy your local livestock?

 

[lpsouth1978]

I live in Phoenix also Ipsouth. Where do you buy your local livestock?

I buy most of my fish at Aquarium Arts. This place does not look that nice, but they always have A LOT of saltwater fish. I have NEVER had a sick fish from them, including a Powder Blue Tang, and I don't QT. I get a lot of corals from Kona and a few from Reef Monster and Limited Edition Corals.

 

[Jimmyneptune]

Talked with a LFS here in Illinois, they said price on freight can be 4x as much. They won't raise prices on customers so they import what they can at or close to pre COVID prices.

 

[Doctorgori]

I’ll go back and read the entire thread.... but just outta curiosity, has anyone been to or seen to a oversees fish market? I’ve seen a few: Funny/not so funny seeing piles of clams and other tropical fish being sold cheaply for food...
Also curious why Carribean/Atlantic tropicals cost as much or more than Pacific species

 

[LeprechaunReefer]

I work in the beer industry on the Gulf Coast. When a hurricane hits and the government pays 3x going rate for trucks to deliver the supplies they need v. The private sector we end up losing out. Beer retailers won’t tolerate influxes in price as mush as fish retailers - especially the big grocery chains - so we seek subsidies from our brewery partners. Doesn’t always work but the truth is the cost has to be passed along somewhere.

 

[Steph37]

I've luckily had the opposite. My lfs has had amazing prices!