fishless sps

[Graffiti Spot]

@blasterman not to disagree with you but....

http://hunterlabhawaii.com/docs/pubs/Forsman et al. 2012.pdf
Edited to change link to direct research paper without adds.

I don’t like how some of the good experiments always use sps other than acropora. I know it’s easier to do correctly with them but I would love to see any of these papers redone with multiple acropora types as the corals instead of porites, poci and monti.

 

[jda]

I added Ace Hardware ammonium to tanks where I had no fish - dosed in the RO in the ATO which worked fine if I let it dry out every once in a while. It was fine, but not as good as having fish. You are going to need to find a way to get some P into the tank. Once you have some bacteria, then some flake food for the crabs, shrimp and inverts is fine.

There is no evidence that acropora use the foods that vendors sell - just anecdotes where some say that they are worthless and some say that they are indispensable. Put me on the worthless side of things. However, unless your N and P are at a super high level where they are already poison, they don't hurt anything either.

 

[Mastiffsrule]

Evening,

I always ask why would someone want to run it that way. I still favor fish over coral ;Woot. What fun is it to just stare at colorful rocks? (I‘ma gonna get it now)

Fish bring color, life, personality.

 

[Charlie’s Frags]

Evening,

I always ask why would someone want to run it that way. I still favor fish over coral ;Woot. What fun is it to just stare at colorful rocks? (I‘ma gonna get it now)

Fish bring color, life, personality.

I only have one set up with no fish for coral qt.

 

[Jon_W79]

Evening,

I always ask why would someone want to run it that way. I still favor fish over coral ;Woot. What fun is it to just stare at colorful rocks? (I‘ma gonna get it now)

Fish bring color, life, personality.

If my experiment would have worked, the benefits of it would be that there are no fish to feed or take care of, you wouldn't be putting fish in a shallow frag tank(that is possibly not viewable from the sides), you would have automated and precise control of the nutrients added to the aquarium, mechanical filtration may be less important and water may stay clear, you may not need any water surface skimming, and you may be able to build a frag tank that cost less and is more simple.

 

[I’ma tempermental coral]

I don’t like how some of the good experiments always use sps other than acropora. I know it’s easier to do correctly with them but I would love to see any of these papers redone with multiple acropora types as the corals instead of porites, poci and monti.

I’d like to see it as well but there are very good reasons to use what they did. There’s just way to much variability in even the same acro.

 

[therman]

I massively failed at this experiment toward the end of last year. Tried to set up a backup system using water and most rock from my very successful 14 year old SPS system. Corals did great for a while but then started crashing due to nutrients zeroing out. Have added a few fish and an autofeeder and it is sort of maintaining now. I think I need to trash all the corals and start over with fresh cuts that didnt go through the nutrient drop as they seem to be permanently messed up with stagnant growth and deformities.

 

[tvan]

Thanks for all the great information. I have a small DT (20L), most fish I'm afraid would suffer. Anyhow there is a lot to consider.

 

[blasterman]

@blasterman not to disagree with you but....

http://hunterlabhawaii.com/docs/pubs/Forsman et al. 2012.pdf
Edited to change link to direct research paper without adds.

From that link, which I'm well aware of for years:

Although being one of the more expensive and natural products, the tanks fed with the Oyster Eggs did not differ significantly from the control tank

Yuh think? They are also testing mostly montipora, which the majority of SPS keepers whine and complain grow too fast.

Until I see a control test of a tank of mature (not nub frags) of various acropora growing faster with these products vs the same tank with the same nutrient levels from generic protein , aka moist cat food or over feeding fish food there's no evidence they do anything.

Yes, thats right. I want to see a tank with a 'X' DOC and nitrate / phosphate levels raised via these expensive products vs a tank raised to identical levels with moist friskies cat food. I will bet $1,000 on it there will be no difference. Anybody want to take the bet? Corals do not have very complex nutrient requirements, which is why they are called Anthozoa and not Mammals.

Short form: if you have a ULN tank and need more nutrients due to starving SPS just feeding more of generic frozen fish food accomplishes the same thing. Same argument applies to proteins and amino acids.

I'm sorry guys, but IMO this falls under 'emotional purchase defense' syndrome. At least it's not arguing that baking soda in a bottle of water is different than buffer part B.

 

[Graffiti Spot]

Yea I have the same thoughts honestly. I think the ovarian tissue is a good part of oysterfeast. I think most have good results using it because it’s an easy way to feed the tank in small amounts with something that’s benifits everything in the tank and doesn’t polute the water too much. Many people I know that aren’t real experienced have trouble feeding food to a fish less tank and not over feeding.
You might have a hard time convincing people these days acros don’t actually digest and use food that we supply them, I have no clue if they do or not but I lean towards the side that thinks they don’t actually use the food and it’s the tank that benefits more than anything. I am still waiting for a paper that’s done using acropora as the main experiment as well, I don’t think the sps corals they have used translates to acropora at all.
There are a bunch of people taking to that easy reefs food stuff it looks like. And I heard a lot of reefers in Europe are using phyto in their tanks and getting good results. But still this is all stuff that’s probably benefits the whole tank more than anything. The only food that really got my attention was the blu coral method because so many had visible results but that really didn’t take hold here in the states. I am still very curious if the hgh in the food had anything to do with the growth of some of those colonies. It is kinda intriguing that only certain corals grew to extraordinary sizes and growth rates. Kind of makes you wonder. There is so much more to learn about this hobby and that’s why I love it so much, and I am only really interested in acropora, I still never get bored.

 

[naterealbig]

Bump for more fishless SPS / Pappone / Blu Coral Method experiences

 

[Jon_W79]

I started a fishless sps experiment about 3 weeks ago(a 100 gallon rubbermaid stock tank). First I added Bio-Spira, then I added about 1ppm ammonia, some phosphate, and some organic fulvic acid(the tank doesn't have lights now). In two weeks the tank fully cycled, and I measured 25 nitrate. I started adding 0.8 grams of ammonium chloride two times a week( if all the ammonium is turned into nitrate it should add at least 7ppm of nitrate a week), and I started dosing 4ml of vodka a day. Today my Nitrate measured 10ppm. I don't have a skimmer on the tank, I don't see a lot of denitrifying bacteria growth, hopefully I can get away without using a skimmer. I believe that in a reef tank acropora get the vast majority of their nutrition from ammonium/ammonia and phosphate, and I also think they may need to have humic substances it the water. When I get the nutrient import and export where I want it, and I get the water parameters were I want them, I will add light to the tank, and I may add a test coral.

 

[DanConnor]

I started a fishless sps experiment about 3 weeks ago(a 100 gallon rubbermaid stock tank). First I added Bio-Spira, then I added about 1ppm ammonia, some phosphate, and some organic fulvic acid(the tank doesn't have lights now). In two weeks the tank fully cycled, and I measured 25 nitrate. I started adding 0.8 grams of ammonium chloride two times a week( if all the ammonium is turned into nitrate it should add at least 7ppm of nitrate a week), and I started dosing 4ml of vodka a day. Today my Nitrate measured 10ppm. I don't have a skimmer on the tank, I don't see a lot of denitrifying bacteria growth, hopefully I can get away without using a skimmer. I believe that in a reef tank acropora get the vast majority of their nutrition from ammonium/ammonia and phosphate, and I also think they may need to have humic substances it the water. When I get the nutrient import and export where I want it, and I get the water parameters were I want them, I will add light to the tank, and I may add a test coral.

How is that experiment coming?

 

[Jon_W79]

How is that experiment coming?

My Nitrate is 25-30(I might have have a very small amount of nitrite affecting that). The 25 ppm Nitrate measurement I had earlier was strange, I don't think I added enough ammonium to get even half that much, and I didn't think I had any nitrite. I think the current nitrate level may be very far below what it should be if none of the nitrate was removed, especially if I count that 25 ppm nitrate measurement I did earlier(I should have kept track of all the ammonium chloride I added). I think the denitrifying bacteria may need more surface area and more areas with ideal conditions to grow in, because there have been some bacteria blooms up until recently (the water still may get a little bit cloudy at least part of the day). I may put some Seachem de-nitrate in a reactor soon. I am currently dosing 0.25g of ammonium chloride each day, enough to add about 1 ppm of nitrate each day(if it is all turned into nitrate).

 

[Jon_W79]

I think that it is very likely that I figured out how to grow sps corals without fish. I still have to try to grow the corals, but I think it is going to work. I have been growing red ogo very successfully, and there has been some type of algae starting to grow in the Rubbermaid stock tank. I think that if someone can grow algae well, without fish, I think it will be possible to grow sps corals without fish. One of the main things that makes me think this is that I believe a very large majority of the fish mass from the fish that Adam from @Battlecorals has is from purely vegetarian fish(foxface and rabbitfish), and Adam is very successful at growing sps corals. Since a very large majority of the fish are purely vegetarian, I think that a fishless sps tank can be successful(at least to some extent) by dosing certain vitamins, dosing ammonium chloride, probably dosing organic fulvic acid, having snails instead of fish, etc.

I am growing red ogo in a standard 20 gallon aquarium plumbed to the 100 gallon stock tank(the cheato was damaged during shipping). The 20 gallon aquarium is probably holding about 16 or 17 gallons, and has about 55 gph going into it, and I am using a dosing pump to dose an ammonium chloride solution into the aquarium. The red ogo growth happened over 16 days or less by the time it really started growing(I lost some of the pieces also).

 

[Jon_W79]

I believe my Rubbermaid sps tank is going to be a success. I think this may turn out to be the lowest cost way and the most simple way to grow acropora. I will probably do a build thread soon. I believe at least some of my corals are growing without any other animals in the tank right now(I'm going to get some snails soon to control the algae). The corals below are Battle Corals Battle De Fuego, and Aware Wolf.

 

[Jon_W79]

I have had corals in my fishless sps tank for two weeks now under an old 400w radium bulb.

I had zero nitrate an hour or two before I took the pictures(I dosed nitrate to 2 ppm). The Hyperberry has definitely been incrusting. I believe all corals have been growing. The Ultimate Soli had really good polyp extention at night.(I should have removed the dead coral, it dying wasn't my fault). I think the millipora may be recovering. I added some activated carbon to the tank maybe about a week ago because I think there could have been chloramine in the tank water(I will change the ro/di carbon blocks tomorrow).

 

[ReefHunter006]

I run a fishless frag system that is sps dominate. Feed primarily reef nutrition oyster feast, phyto feast, reef blizzard and some of the brightwell small micron foods. Attached a couple pictures for reference.

I’ve had great coral growth but I also run this systems ph 8.4-8.8

 

[Jon_W79]

I will take another picture of the Hyperberry and some other corals in a week or less, and I believe people will see growth when they compare pictures.

 

[Graffiti Spot]

I remember a guy on rc using a 20 gallon long to keep a large wild porites colony and maybe a few other wild corals with a halide over it who was keeping them pretty good. No rock or anything else biological for filtration other than the coral if I remember right. Would be good to find that old thread. Not sure he had much measurable growth but it wasn’t doing badly from what I remember.