For those that don't quarantine fish or corals.....mitigation?

[Elegance Coral]

I QT EVERYTHING. Even snails.
I've been at this a long time, and I haven't always quarantined. I've paid the price many times over too. I always have to learn the hard way. LOL
While I agree that fish can build a much stronger immune system if provided with a proper diet, and stress free environment, we can not create a fish that is immune to parasites, like ICH, by simply using these methods. This would be like feeding your dog well and expecting it to be immune to fleas. It doesn't work that way.
There are many factors that can influence how well a parasite does in a tank. Water volume, number and size of fish, filtration, and even temperature. Often, we simply don't know why a parasite flourishes in one system, and not another. Myself and many others have maintained tanks were ICH was present, but due to the conditions of the system, the parasite was not able to reach plaque proportions. In these systems, it's not uncommon for something to change in the parasites' favor. Addition of more host fish, temperature change, filtration malfunction............ It doesn't need to be a large change. Just anything to slightly tip the scales in favor of the parasite, and they can bloom, killing every fish in the tank. It's happened countless times.
This isn't a case of two sides, where we either QT, or feed our fish well to build strong immune systems. We can do both. In fact, I do both. I have somewhere around 75 fish in my home, not counting babies. My wife jokes about the fish eating better than we do, and they've all been through QT.
It's nice to have the peace of mind, knowing that my fish won't come down with ICH, brook, velvet, or many other ailments, not simply because they have the energy to fight off these ailments, but because these ailments do not exist in my systems. It's impossible for my fish to suffer from ICH because that parasite doesn't exist in their environment. They can use the nutrition and energy from their diet for things like growth, reproduction, and to produce beautiful colors. They don't have to go through the stress, and burn energy and resources, fighting parasites.

JMHO
Peace
EC

 

[SMB]

I QT EVERYTHING. Even snails.
I've been at this a long time, and I haven't always quarantined. I've paid the price many times over too. I always have to learn the hard way. LOL
While I agree that fish can build a much stronger immune system if provided with a proper diet, and stress free environment, we can not create a fish that is immune to parasites, like ICH, by simply using these methods. This would be like feeding your dog well and expecting it to be immune to fleas. It doesn't work that way.
There are many factors that can influence how well a parasite does in a tank. Water volume, number and size of fish, filtration, and even temperature. Often, we simply don't know why a parasite flourishes in one system, and not another. Myself and many others have maintained tanks were ICH was present, but due to the conditions of the system, the parasite was not able to reach plaque proportions. In these systems, it's not uncommon for something to change in the parasites' favor. Addition of more host fish, temperature change, filtration malfunction............ It doesn't need to be a large change. Just anything to slightly tip the scales in favor of the parasite, and they can bloom, killing every fish in the tank. It's happened countless times.
This isn't a case of two sides, where we either QT, or feed our fish well to build strong immune systems. We can do both. In fact, I do both. I have somewhere around 75 fish in my home, not counting babies. My wife jokes about the fish eating better than we do, and they've all been through QT.
It's nice to have the peace of mind, knowing that my fish won't come down with ICH, brook, velvet, or many other ailments, not simply because they have the energy to fight off these ailments, but because these ailments do not exist in my systems. It's impossible for my fish to suffer from ICH because that parasite doesn't exist in their environment. They can use the nutrition and energy from their diet for things like growth, reproduction, and to produce beautiful colors. They don't have to go through the stress, and burn energy and resources, fighting parasites.

JMHO
Peace
EC

I wish we could have a system that is free of disease causing organisms but it is probably unlikely. For instance Mycobacterium marinum is probably in most/all systems.
What doesn’t get mentioned a lot is the possible medicinal effect of a well ”coraled” tank. Parasitic organisms my well get eaten by coral polyps as they are shed by fish. Corals might also give off compounds that control parasites/bacteria.
So many unknowns.

 

[Lasse]

For instance Mycobacterium marinum is probably in most/all systems.

Its true - and this is a zoonotic disease that can affect the fish keeper.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[MnFish1]

Let me debunk a myth.
The myth - commercial fish food is developed for the benefit of fish health and nutrient demand.
The truth – It is not.

Commercial fish food are designed to give maximum weight gain until it is time to slaughter the fish and to minimize the time until slaughter , normally for around 2 – 3 years (and for some species – less than a year) They are not designed for a long life. They have nothing to do with long time health of fish. If you attend to keep your fish for several years and not to eat them up after a short time – do not feed high protein (and high fat) content dry food – at least not in that amount that is normal today. Feed less and more fresh and frozen foods

Even if I and Paul B have the same point of view in many of these things – I differ from him according to fish that eat more or less 100 % algae in nature. That count in many fish like some blennies, tangs (not all – the unicorn is a zoo plankton picker) and some of the Signus genera. They have normally developed a much longer intestine than omnivorous and carnivore fish. The brown surgeonfish Acanthurus nigrofuscus can have an intestine that is up to 3 times the standard length The convict tang of Hawaii can have the proportions 6:1

Even if it has been showed that the gut length in some way can be adapted when eating other foods (read – more meaty) I would say that these fishes need algae and much algae in order to be developed well over their life span. One way to do this is to not to feed very much but let the tang (as an example) get most of their food from algae growth in the aquarium. A healthy Tang aquarium for me is an aquarium where the tangs are rather slime but during most of their active swimming constantly pick for algae on stones and other decorations.

Sincerely Lasse

I agree - that said - I think fish farm food is different than for aquaria. Or?

 

[MnFish1]

I wish we could have a system that is free of disease causing organisms but it is probably unlikely. For instance Mycobacterium marinum is probably in most/all systems.
What doesn’t get mentioned a lot is the possible medicinal effect of a well ”coraled” tank. Parasitic organisms my well get eaten by coral polyps as they are shed by fish. Corals might also give off compounds that control parasites/bacteria.
So many unknowns.

And many if not all health care workers are colonized with MRSA - yet everyone freaks out when someone gets an infection. The only difference between non-MRSA and MRSA - is its resistant to more common antibiotics and thus is not treated appropriately as quickly - thus can cause more problems.

But - there is a difference lets say between anthrax (which is not present on human skin unless there is a disease) and Staph. So with all due respect to @Paul B - not all 'disease causing bacteria' are present in the gut. In fact, most disease producing bacteria are NOT in the gut - instead there are other bacteria present that help PREVENT disease producing bacteria from taking hold. Is this absolute? No - some people probably have cholera in their guts - but its a very few #. The same with parasites. Most people in America do not have tapeworms. If they get one - they are treated.

 

[Lasse]

I agree - that said - I think fish farm food is different than for aquaria. Or?

Looking at the contents in "qualitive aquarium fish food" and compare with foods for fish farms - sorry - I have to say - it is not any huge difference - I have run fish farms with food containing less proteins than aquarium fish food. Good things is that nowadays even aquarium fish food contain lot of Omega-3 both as EPA and DHA and that the HUFA balance is good today. But - IMO - it contains too much proteins for many of our fishes. With other words - aquarium fish food is designed to give max weight gain in shortest time - it is only the amount of food that decide this. If you feed with fresh food (or frozen natural food) you have to feed around 5 - 7 grams of that in order to get the same nutrients that you have in 1 gr modern dry food. With the dry food used in aquaria today - it is possible to reach a food conversion higher than 1 – it means that 1 gram of dry food can give between 1 – 1.3 gram fish biomass.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[MnFish1]

With the dry food used in aquaria today - it is possible to reach a food conversion higher than 1 – it means that 1 gram of dry food can give between 1 – 1.3 gram fish biomass.

that would to be because of water content correct (the biomass increase is related to the water of the tissues - sorry this is poorly worded. If you dehydrated the (dead) fish completely - the mass would not give that same increase)?

 

[Lasse]

that would to be because of water content correct (the biomass increase is related to the water of the tissues - sorry this is poorly worded. If you dehydrated the (dead) fish completely - the mass would not give that same increase)?

Yes

Sincerely Lasse

 

[MnFish1]

Yes

Sincerely Lasse

Thanks for clarifying...

 

[Lasse]

I was just checking that you were awake

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Paul B]

What was that!! I was asleep.

 

[MnFish1]

What was that!! I was asleep.

It was just Sweden against Norway - pretend it was a soccer match

 

[Lasse]

Talking about soccer - congratulations Norway.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Huskymaniac]

Its true - and this is a zoonotic disease that can affect the fish keeper.

Sincerely Lasse

I literally have a M. MARINUM infection in my hand right now. And anyone who has real live rock from the ocean, (old school)or have bought inverts or coral likely have this bacteria in their biofilm. No way to know or tell unless you win the lottery like me. Some sites say it causes a chronic progressive disease that kills fish in month to years. I lost my oldest clown fish last year at age 14 and my next oldest fish is a possum at age 7. So from what I have seen is that either fish can be silent carriers of M.M. causing no issues unless compromised or their immune system prevents them from or being infected. Unfortunately there is not enough research on mycobacterium on the casual aquarists.

 

[Paul B]

I never heard of it. But i did now.

 

[Huskymaniac]

I never heard of it. But i did now.

 

[Huskymaniac]

And I used to QT and basically treat everything prophylacticly. Worked out well for me. Still ended up with crypto twice and a zoonic infection to go a long with it. My new approach is that fish go in QT for a week or two until they are strong enough and feeding well. Anything sinister will show up in that time. Once a fish is eating the right foods and not stressed their immune system takes over.

 

[Matt Carden]

I have an 8 month old tank. No QT on anything. I've added GARF order, IPSF order, reefcleaners, live rock from gulfliverock.com,coral from AquaSD, mud and NSW from Siesta Key intercostal, sand straight from the beach @ Siesta Beach no rinse, fish from LFS. I only temp acclimate for 15 minutes then add 8oz cup of tank water wait 15 minutes and dump contents of bag directly to DT or sump. I know it's only 8 months but I have had no issues except excessive algae in the first 6 months. Now my glass and powder fine sand is relatively clean. I only have to clean my glass every 5 days before it starts to build up clouding my vision. I feed 3 to 4 1" cubes of homemade Mollusk feast daily with 8 fish in a 150 with plans to add at least 10 more. Admittedly I have a slight issue with PO4 >3ppm. My fish don't mind and the few corals I have are tolerating that level but I know I will need to bring that down.

 

[Jase4224]

I have an 8 month old tank. No QT on anything. I've added GARF order, IPSF order, reefcleaners, live rock from gulfliverock.com,coral from AquaSD, mud and NSW from Siesta Key intercostal, sand straight from the beach @ Siesta Beach no rinse, fish from LFS. I only temp acclimate for 15 minutes then add 8oz cup of tank water wait 15 minutes and dump contents of bag directly to DT or sump. I know it's only 8 months but I have had no issues except excessive algae in the first 6 months. Now my glass and powder fine sand is relatively clean. I only have to clean my glass every 5 days before it starts to build up clouding my vision. I feed 3 to 4 1" cubes of homemade Mollusk feast daily with 8 fish in a 150 with plans to add at least 10 more. Admittedly I have a slight issue with PO4 >3ppm. My fish don't mind and the few corals I have are tolerating that level but I know I will need to bring that down.

I wander if adding anything from the ocean also introduces natural predators of fish diseases? Also I wander if mussels would help filter out fish diseases, kind of like a living UV? Still so much we don’t know.

 

[Matt Carden]

I wander if adding anything from the ocean also introduces natural predators of fish diseases? Also I wander if mussels would help filter out fish diseases, kind of like a living UV? Still so much we don’t know.

I have a living Mussel that was attached to the live rock. Also I got some live clams from the ocean and added them to my sump. Some died but most of them are still closed up so assuming alive.