For those that don't quarantine fish or corals.....mitigation?

[Mastiffsrule]

Evening or morning all,

Quick update, 1 week with Filey, I call him and doing great. No QT and on top of that a half a gallon of the LFS store water went in to the tank with him by accident. I always wonder if I put him thru a long QT process would it actually be detrimental to his health.

Had black worms for dinner. Gets along with everyone. Only problem is he’s hard to see sometimes he blends into the rock so well.

 

[SMB]

A while back on this thread I posted I had just started 6 Dartfish on observation in a QT tank. While I have two excellent LFSs and have added fish from them directly to my DT, I felt it was difficult to tell what was happening with these small fish. If I put them in the DT they likely would hide and not eat for some time. Dartfish generally don't "pick" so if they aren't in the water column they likely will not get fed.
28 days in QT. I did notice three of the fish were quite skinny with temporal wasting, although they were active. After 5 days all six were eating well and at the end of QT they were eating several foods including live white worms. (See post by Lasse. I also like live foods to repopulate the gut of a starving/medicated fish with normal gut flora.) All fish visibly put on weight and were well trained to a feeding schedule.
Sunday AM is my WC day and since the Dartfish looked well and had no issues they were added to the DT. None went into hiding, ( they do like to school, at least until they pair off). I carried out my usual DT feeding about two hours later and all six immediately came up to the feeding dropper and ate well.

These fish were not stressed in QT, and they were not medicated. I do think they benefited from their rehab, but frankly what I did was not much different from Lasse's "sump observation". I did have the option to medicate if needed. Of course I don't think this is the end of the story because I will see how they do over the coming weeks. But I don't think there have to be "absolutes" when it comes to this discussion.

 

[MnFish1]

Skep18. There is almost never a need to apologize here to anyone about anything, especially if you are being respectful. I have to apologize all the time because I am sure I offend people all the time. It's an Old thing and as we age, we lost our filter and blurt out all sorts of things before thinking about it. I get in trouble all the time but it is what it is.
Nice to meet you by the way.
Oh, and I have socks longer than that.

Yikes - I dont have any socks newer than that....

 

[MnFish1]

BTW if anyone is interested - I just put up a poll about some of the 'common wisdom/truisms/myths of reefkeeping - I think its Germaine to the thread - so please answer....https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/a-somewhat-long-myth-busters-poll.614860/#post-6176480

 

[Rilo]

I have a 40g display in my living room and a 10g display tank in my bedroom. The one in my living room looks bad so I dump whatever I get that might be a risk of contamination in there. It has aiptasia, gha, and some other nasty algaes. Once the corals grow I frag a nice clean piece and place it in my 10g display that is pristine. Gorgeous 10g with a kessil a160we 2 heaters, and a jebao pp4 powerhead. All my nice corals go in there.

No pests no problem.

 

[Lasse]

A while back on this thread I posted I had just started 6 Dartfish on observation in a QT tank. While I have two excellent LFSs and have added fish from them directly to my DT, I felt it was difficult to tell what was happening with these small fish. If I put them in the DT they likely would hide and not eat for some time. Dartfish generally don't "pick" so if they aren't in the water column they likely will not get fed.
28 days in QT. I did notice three of the fish were quite skinny with temporal wasting, although they were active. After 5 days all six were eating well and at the end of QT they were eating several foods including live white worms. (See post by Lasse. I also like live foods to repopulate the gut of a starving/medicated fish with normal gut flora.) All fish visibly put on weight and were well trained to a feeding schedule.
Sunday AM is my WC day and since the Dartfish looked well and had no issues they were added to the DT. None went into hiding, ( they do like to school, at least until they pair off). I carried out my usual DT feeding about two hours later and all six immediately came up to the feeding dropper and ate well.

These fish were not stressed in QT, and they were not medicated. I do think they benefited from their rehab, but frankly what I did was not much different from Lasse's "sump observation". I did have the option to medicate if needed. Of course I don't think this is the end of the story because I will see how they do over the coming weeks. But I don't think there have to be "absolutes" when it comes to this discussion.

Dartfishes are delicate to handle. I would guess that if you have put them direct into the DT - you had lost some of them. That´s the reason why I use an acclimation stop with my refugium. I got some threadfin cardinals a while ago. I did a mistake with these and only had them in my refugium for 8 days – the transfer works well but I slowly have lost 2. They should have been in the refugium for at least 1 – 2 weeks more in order to gain so much energy that they manage 8 more of the same species. But I was going on a short vacation and took the decision that it was better with them out in the DT because it was easier for my fish-sitter. I´m on my way to rebuild my sump apartment and maybe make place for one more refugium. Maybe I will use an Vecton UVC on the return line tom my DT in that case. – we will see.

By the way - it is Paul B that use living white worms - not me - honour the one that should be hounered I use frozen black mosquito larvae to start fish (and sometimes - God forgive me - even bloodworms if it is a very picky fish - but do not tell anyone and do not tell every longnosed butterfly this )

Sincerely Lasse

 

[SMB]

Dartfishes are delicate to handle. I would guess that if you have put them direct into the DT - you had lost some of them. That´s the reason why I use an acclimation stop with my refugium. I got some threadfin cardinals a while ago. I did a mistake with these and only had them in my refugium for 8 days – the transfer works well but I slowly have lost 2. They should have been in the refugium for at least 1 – 2 weeks more in order to gain so much energy that they manage 8 more of the same species. But I was going on a short vacation and took the decision that it was better with them out in the DT because it was easier for my fish-sitter. I´m on my way to rebuild my sump apartment and maybe make place for one more refugium. Maybe I will use an Vecton UVC on the return line tom my DT in that case. – we will see.

By the way - it is Paul B that use living white worms - not me - honour the one that should be hounered I use frozen black mosquito larvae to start fish (and sometimes - God forgive me - even bloodworms if it is a very picky fish - but do not tell anyone and do not tell every longnosed butterfly this )

Sincerely Lasse

I did get my white worm start from Paul B. I was commenting more on the benifit of live food to restore gut flora, and I think you had mentioned the same thing either in this thread or the stringy poop discussion. To lazy to go back and look! Anyway WW work for me and they are pretty easy to keep with no worries about getting live food from LFS. Few fish can resist a wiggling worm.

 

[MnFish1]

Its funny - some here might disagree - but - there is some pretty good information out there that suggests feeding 'live foods' is counter productive - that Protein is Protein, vitamins are vitamins - and commercial fish foods are designed (the quality ones) - to provide a balanced diet. I think that a probiotic type food makes sense after QT with medication - or an antibiotic. I do not know any way of knowing that feeding x food will provide the bacteria that a queen angel vs a Coris wrasse needs for optimal health. It could very well be that different species require different bacteria. But - in those situations I do use LRS.

BTW - My discus spawn and raise young eating only flake food....

 

[SMB]

Its funny - some here might disagree - but - there is some pretty good information out there that suggests feeding 'live foods' is counter productive - that Protein is Protein, vitamins are vitamins - and commercial fish foods are designed (the quality ones) - to provide a balanced diet. I think that a probiotic type food makes sense after QT with medication - or an antibiotic. I do not know any way of knowing that feeding x food will provide the bacteria that a queen angel vs a Coris wrasse needs for optimal health. It could very well be that different species require different bacteria. But - in those situations I do use LRS.

BTW - My discus spawn and raise young eating only flake food....

Not a lot of evidence that probiotics in humans have any great benefit.
Don’t know about fish.
Agree good nutrition is good nutrition. But getting fish to eat it is another thing.
WWs stay alive for some time in SW and they are pretty tempting. I’m sure for a lot of people they would be a pain.

 

[MnFish1]

Not a lot of evidence that probiotics in humans have any great benefit.
Don’t know about fish.
Agree good nutrition is good nutrition. But getting fish to eat it is another thing.
WWs stay alive for some time in SW and they are pretty tempting. I’m sure for a lot of people they would be a pain.

Yeah - its actually funny - the flake food I use is much more quickly taken up than LRS.

 

[Mark_C]

Never QT, feels it stresses the fish out more. Every fish is acclimated over 1-2 hours in a clear container floating in main tank and released into DT.

Mitigation I guess, and I think that mitigation is all down to husbandry...

Every morning I take 10 mins to use a blower on the rocks and sandbed, scrape the glass, and change any moderately dirty floss.
Every Wednesday and Saturday morning is a partial water change totaling 10-20% of tank volume.
Algae scrubber, protein skimmer, carbon reactor cleaned as needed on Wednesday and/or Saturday.
A bit of GFO if I start to see anything out of control, phosban for a few days if it looks worrisome. I'll then let diatomes and various algae run their course (though after a recent encounter I may adjust this attitude in regard to hair algae).
I feed homemade food consisting of krill, nori, pods, blood worms, plankton, shrimp, and misc fish, well rinsed, with a bit of seldane and a drop of garlic, blended and freeze dried into cubes. This is supplemented with a dose of live pods every few months and the occasional cheeseburger.

Eight years in have lost the occasional jumper but can honestly say I can't recall ever having a loss to disease.

 

[Jase4224]

I don’t agree nor disagree about protein is protein and vitamins are vitamins, I don’t know enough. But the first thing that comes to mind is that proteins may be changed in the manufacturing and preserving processes. Not sure. I bet the bacteria are largely destroyed though whereas live foods contain the whole animal bacteria and all.

If you are going to the trouble of QT and especially if you treat as well then live foods may be counter productive because they may just carry disease.

Just some ideas..

 

[SMB]

I don’t agree nor disagree about protein is protein and vitamins are vitamins, I don’t know enough. But the first thing that comes to mind is that proteins may be changed in the manufacturing and preserving processes. Not sure. I bet the bacteria are largely destroyed though whereas live foods contain the whole animal bacteria and all.

If you are going to the trouble of QT and especially if you treat as well then live foods may be counter productive because they may just carry disease.

Just some ideas..

I don't want to go to far afield for this thread, but there are some important points to your question.
In humans we know that healthy gut flora is key to a healthy immune system. Long term antibiotics can wipe out the bacterial balance in our gut causing life threatening gut infections. In the worst instances one heroic treatment can be a "fecal transplant"!!!
I suspect the same is true for most vertebrates with a complex GI tract. (For the most part non humans don't get exposed to a lot of antibiotics.) Fish from the time they leave the ocean are purposely not fed for shipping and then likely don't eat for some time. If they are then placed on antibiotics it is reasonable to bet that their gut is compromised and their immune system is compromised.
Getting them to eat is key to regaining their healthy systems. "Sterile " foods offer nutrition but probably do little to hassen the restoration of normal gut flora. They need bacteria! So live food likely helps in this regard. Plus you can "gut load" the live food with some good stuff.
As I learned from Paul B you can feed WWs raw yogurt (acidophilus bact.), yeast (B vitamins), whole wheat bread (protein) , and Selcon. You can feed them to the fish one at a time and they keep wiggling for quite a while (black worms are dead as soon as they hit the salt water), so that means less waste/decomposing food in the DT/QT.
I don't know of any diseases carried by WWs that are pathogenic to saltwater fish. While possible it seems unlikely.

Again, every successful marine aquarist has a system that works for them. If it ain't broke don't fix it! But this thread is useful to give folks options to try. I don't follow a strict QT formula, but base what I do with a new fish on where it comes from, how it looks, if it is a notorious finicky eater etc. Not everybody raises their own live foods, but I have the time, it is not hard, and it works for me. (I would like to think that science likely supports the effort.)

 

[MnFish1]

I don't want to go to far afield for this thread, but there are some important points to your question.
In humans we know that healthy gut flora is key to a healthy immune system. Long term antibiotics can wipe out the bacterial balance in our gut causing life threatening gut infections. In the worst instances one heroic treatment can be a "fecal transplant"!!!
I suspect the same is true for most vertebrates with a complex GI tract. (For the most part non humans don't get exposed to a lot of antibiotics.) Fish from the time they leave the ocean are purposely not fed for shipping and then likely don't eat for some time. If they are then placed on antibiotics it is reasonable to bet that their gut is compromised and their immune system is compromised.
Getting them to eat is key to regaining their healthy systems. "Sterile " foods offer nutrition but probably do little to hassen the restoration of normal gut flora. They need bacteria! So live food likely helps in this regard. Plus you can "gut load" the live food with some good stuff.
As I learned from Paul B you can feed WWs raw yogurt (acidophilus bact.), yeast (B vitamins), whole wheat bread (protein) , and Selcon. You can feed them to the fish one at a time and they keep wiggling for quite a while (black worms are dead as soon as they hit the salt water), so that means less waste/decomposing food in the DT/QT.
I don't know of any diseases carried by WWs that are pathogenic to saltwater fish. While possible it seems unlikely.

Again, every successful marine aquarist has a system that works for them. If it ain't broke don't fix it! But this thread is useful to give folks options to try. I don't follow a strict QT formula, but base what I do with a new fish on where it comes from, how it looks, if it is a notorious finicky eater etc. Not everybody raises their own live foods, but I have the time, it is not hard, and it works for me. (I would like to think that science likely supports the effort.)

I agree that everyone can feed however/whatever the feel is best - so not trying to debate - but there are some interesting arguments against hobbyist based diets (mainly poorly balanced). I think its perhaps more complicated. There is no doubt that 'live foods' are eaten by fish. But - just because something is 'alive' doesnt make it nutritious. Just because something has bacteria on it doesnt mean its the 'right' bacteria. So for example - a cow can easily eat and digest grass/hay - its nutritious to them - and alive. A human being cannot live on grass - but it's alive right? To me its the same for fish. Here is an interesting article on 'fish nutrition myths'http://advancedaquariumconcepts.com/myths-and-misconceptions-about-fish-nutrition/

With dogs there is currently a big debate of the 'grain free' diet vs 'pet food manufactured' diets. There is stong evidence that feeding an unbalanced 'grain free diet' can lead to heart issues in certain breeds. Same debate using the 'raw diet' vs 'kibble type diets'. https://www.veterinarypracticenews.com/debating-raw-diets-january-2019/. (that article is about dogs FWIW - but the same points apply to 'natural' fish foods.

 

[Paul B]

MnFish, I like that article and agree with much of it. I like this part:

Quote:
Another misconception is that certain types of fish require certain foods in their diets. For example, many aquarists think that algae eaters need algae in their diet (or a wafer shaped food with algae in its name). This is not true. Although they have adapted to eat algae in nature, this is their way of achieving a complete and balanced diet, but not the only way they can get proper nutrition. As long as the ingredients are easy enough to digest they can get a complete and balanced diet from a high quality pellet. In addition, most wafer shaped foods with algae in the name are much more similar to any pellet food than most people realize.

This is true. I don't feed algae but I used to. Now I only have one tang and he gets basically fish, clams, mysis and worms. No algae, but he got over it.
For the rest of the article it is easy to know if you are feeding correctly. If your fish are spawning, only dying of old age and never getting sick they are on the right diet.
If one of those conditions are not happening, their diet is wrong. Unless of course you only have ugly fish so they don't want to spawn with each other.

 

[SMB]

I agree that everyone can feed however/whatever the feel is best - so not trying to debate - but there are some interesting arguments against hobbyist based diets (mainly poorly balanced). I think its perhaps more complicated. There is no doubt that 'live foods' are eaten by fish. But - just because something is 'alive' doesnt make it nutritious. Just because something has bacteria on it doesnt mean its the 'right' bacteria. So for example - a cow can easily eat and digest grass/hay - its nutritious to them - and alive. A human being cannot live on grass - but it's alive right? To me its the same for fish. Here is an interesting article on 'fish nutrition myths'http://advancedaquariumconcepts.com/myths-and-misconceptions-about-fish-nutrition/

With dogs there is currently a big debate of the 'grain free' diet vs 'pet food manufactured' diets. There is stong evidence that feeding an unbalanced 'grain free diet' can lead to heart issues in certain breeds. Same debate using the 'raw diet' vs 'kibble type diets'. https://www.veterinarypracticenews.com/debating-raw-diets-january-2019/. (that article is about dogs FWIW - but the same points apply to 'natural' fish foods.

For marine fishes, optimal diets are typically formulated at protein levels of 40–70% for juveniles (Cahu and Infante, 2001) and at lipid levels of 13–16% (Lubzens et al., 1989). Whereas live feeds often are nutritionally tailored (i.e., enriched) to meet specific dietary requirements, the feed organisms must contain enough protein so that they can sustain growth in the cultured fish. At 49–69% protein content (Fig. 6, Supplemental Table 1), white worms appear likely to satisfy that protein demand of cultured fishes, even during early life history. In addition to protein, live feeds must provide energy, usually as lipid, to fuel bioenergetic process and support growth. Compared to other live feeds, the total lipid content of white worms (10–27%; Supplemental Table 1) is comparable to copepods (9–24%, depending on stage), enriched Artemia nauplii (21–23%), and enriched rotifers (7–11%; Evjemo and Olsen, 1997). Results of the present work indicate that white worms would meet the needs of species that demand high protein, high lipid, low ash food items, regardless of feed treatment or production cycle duration.

Just part of a WW article. Don't mean to suggest that is the only food source. I also feed pellets and frozen. But WWs will often get a picky eater started.
As for humans, are bacterial fingerprint is partly determined at birth and by what we eat. You can eat a complete veggie diet and have normal gut microbes.

 

[MnFish1]

For marine fishes, optimal diets are typically formulated at protein levels of 40–70% for juveniles (Cahu and Infante, 2001) and at lipid levels of 13–16% (Lubzens et al., 1989). Whereas live feeds often are nutritionally tailored (i.e., enriched) to meet specific dietary requirements, the feed organisms must contain enough protein so that they can sustain growth in the cultured fish. At 49–69% protein content (Fig. 6, Supplemental Table 1), white worms appear likely to satisfy that protein demand of cultured fishes, even during early life history. In addition to protein, live feeds must provide energy, usually as lipid, to fuel bioenergetic process and support growth. Compared to other live feeds, the total lipid content of white worms (10–27%; Supplemental Table 1) is comparable to copepods (9–24%, depending on stage), enriched Artemia nauplii (21–23%), and enriched rotifers (7–11%; Evjemo and Olsen, 1997). Results of the present work indicate that white worms would meet the needs of species that demand high protein, high lipid, low ash food items, regardless of feed treatment or production cycle duration.

Just part of a WW article. Don't mean to suggest that is the only food source. I also feed pellets and frozen. But WWs will often get a picky eater started.
As for humans, are bacterial fingerprint is partly determined at birth and by what we eat. You can eat a complete veggie diet and have normal gut microbes.

Yep - But - you cant get complete nutrition (without supplements)

 

[Paul B]

I agree with that analysis although I am only guessing as I am not a fish nutritionist. But that study in 1989 is a little old and in those days we didn't know anything about the need for live bacteria and pathogens in the diet.
Only in the past few years we learned that fish need living gut bacteria to be healthy. Not just yogurt bacteria, but disease causing bacteria. We all have it in our guts and if we don't, it's because we are dead.

 

[Jase4224]

I don't want to go to far afield for this thread, but there are some important points to your question.
In humans we know that healthy gut flora is key to a healthy immune system. Long term antibiotics can wipe out the bacterial balance in our gut causing life threatening gut infections. In the worst instances one heroic treatment can be a "fecal transplant"!!!
I suspect the same is true for most vertebrates with a complex GI tract. (For the most part non humans don't get exposed to a lot of antibiotics.) Fish from the time they leave the ocean are purposely not fed for shipping and then likely don't eat for some time. If they are then placed on antibiotics it is reasonable to bet that their gut is compromised and their immune system is compromised.
Getting them to eat is key to regaining their healthy systems. "Sterile " foods offer nutrition but probably do little to hassen the restoration of normal gut flora. They need bacteria! So live food likely helps in this regard. Plus you can "gut load" the live food with some good stuff.
As I learned from Paul B you can feed WWs raw yogurt (acidophilus bact.), yeast (B vitamins), whole wheat bread (protein) , and Selcon. You can feed them to the fish one at a time and they keep wiggling for quite a while (black worms are dead as soon as they hit the salt water), so that means less waste/decomposing food in the DT/QT.
I don't know of any diseases carried by WWs that are pathogenic to saltwater fish. While possible it seems unlikely.

Again, every successful marine aquarist has a system that works for them. If it ain't broke don't fix it! But this thread is useful to give folks options to try. I don't follow a strict QT formula, but base what I do with a new fish on where it comes from, how it looks, if it is a notorious finicky eater etc. Not everybody raises their own live foods, but I have the time, it is not hard, and it works for me. (I would like to think that science likely supports the effort.)

I’m very interested in any info regarding the gut microbiome. Everything from its roll in Alzheimer’s to fecal transplant patients tanking on certain traits from the donor(!!!!!). I’m also very concerned about the use of antibiotics and even probiotics: we clearly are in the infancy of understanding gut health yet you can buy probiotics.. we really don’t even know what we are doing yet.

Whilst reading your response I realised I had a different idea of live food that I didn’t make clear: I was thinking of live mussels and algae fresh from the ocean. This is what I plan to feed my fish to hopefully achieve good nutrition, gut health and strong immune system. These live foods can also can also be kept alive and fresh in my sump and fed once or twice a week to supplement quality pellets (NLS Algae Max, NLS TheraA and Vitalis Marine).

I feel the pellets are more than sufficient but the mussels and algae will be more natural and stimulating, especially for new additions that have been starved and medicated.

White worms would be awesome to get new fish feeding!

 

[Lasse]

Let me debunk a myth.
The myth - commercial fish food is developed for the benefit of fish health and nutrient demand.
The truth – It is not.

Commercial fish food are designed to give maximum weight gain until it is time to slaughter the fish and to minimize the time until slaughter , normally for around 2 – 3 years (and for some species – less than a year) They are not designed for a long life. They have nothing to do with long time health of fish. If you attend to keep your fish for several years and not to eat them up after a short time – do not feed high protein (and high fat) content dry food – at least not in that amount that is normal today. Feed less and more fresh and frozen foods

Even if I and Paul B have the same point of view in many of these things – I differ from him according to fish that eat more or less 100 % algae in nature. That count in many fish like some blennies, tangs (not all – the unicorn is a zoo plankton picker) and some of the Signus genera. They have normally developed a much longer intestine than omnivorous and carnivore fish. The brown surgeonfish Acanthurus nigrofuscus can have an intestine that is up to 3 times the standard length The convict tang of Hawaii can have the proportions 6:1

Even if it has been showed that the gut length in some way can be adapted when eating other foods (read – more meaty) I would say that these fishes need algae and much algae in order to be developed well over their life span. One way to do this is to not to feed very much but let the tang (as an example) get most of their food from algae growth in the aquarium. A healthy Tang aquarium for me is an aquarium where the tangs are rather slime but during most of their active swimming constantly pick for algae on stones and other decorations.

Sincerely Lasse