Foxface very stressed

fishguy242

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the doctor, @Jay Hemdal will be back,prob early in morning..wish i could help you more,best wishes.. :)
 

DaddyFish

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IMO that's definitely Ich. I understand not liking meds, but by the time you see Ich to that degree, it's time for copper.
I'd do freshwater dip(s) on each fish and place them in 2.0 CopperSafe immediately.

I'm trying to follow exactly what size and how many tanks you have available for QT. However you treat this, you aren't going to eradicate Ich in a month. The fish will need to spend at least 30-days in copper. If you are going to treat the DT or corals with fallow, that's at least 45 days. So the fish will need to stay in QT elsewhere during the fallow period.

Foxface is a big fish that requires a lot more space than you think. If it's staying dark/brown most of the time that means it's stressed, and the stress will kill it even without Ich added to the misery. You really should have a 20+ gal QT just for the Foxface and lots of PVC hiding places for it.
 
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boboyo

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IMO that's definitely Ich. I understand not liking meds, but by the time you see Ich to that degree, it's time for copper.
I'd do freshwater dip(s) on each fish and place them in 2.0 CopperSafe immediately.

I'm trying to follow exactly what size and how many tanks you have available for QT. However you treat this, you aren't going to eradicate Ich in a month. The fish will need to spend at least 30-days in copper. If you are going to treat the DT or corals with fallow, that's at least 45 days. So the fish will need to stay in QT elsewhere during the fallow period.

Foxface is a big fish that requires a lot more space than you think. If it's staying dark/brown most of the time that means it's stressed, and the stress will kill it even without Ich added to the misery. You really should have a 20+ gal QT just for the Foxface and lots of PVC hiding places for it.
Fish can go straight in my new 125g tank after treatment. And the foxface is tiny (slightly under 2 inches that’s why he gets bullied).

the only one that has horrible ich is the sailfin so should I start with him and another fish in the 20g? It’ll give me time to get another tank to make the process faster and then put them in the new tank once they’re cured.

I’m also hesitant on using copper because I absolutely need a tank to QT every single fish/coral/invert for 2 months before I put them in the new tank (and don’t want to have the 55g laying around for that). Learned from my newbie mistakes and since I’m going through all this I wanna fully eradicate ich forever
 
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boboyo

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Buying a used tank is no issue for me. Found a 70g on fb marketplace for 150$ Which I could pickup tomorrow

I just don’t want to add extra stress on the fish and copper feels like a lot of work and seems very stressful for them.
 

DaddyFish

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Buying a used tank is no issue for me. Found a 70g on fb marketplace for 150$ Which I could pickup tomorrow

I just don’t want to add extra stress on the fish and copper feels like a lot of work and seems very stressful for them.
My suggestion...
Buy the 75, mix the saltwater, add CopperSafe to 2.0, match the temp and salinity to your 55 DT and move all the fish except the Foxface and Mandarin into the 75 is my suggestion. I'd keep the Foxface in the 20 by itself and leave the Mandarin in the established 55 and hope for the best.

I would use a HOB in the 75 and manage ammonia with water changes.
 
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boboyo

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The 125 is completely brand new right now, no corals, no fish? Cycled to what stage?
Been cycling for a week at higher temp and I burned through 1 and a half bottles of microbacter7 (adding a bit every day)

the only mistake I potentially made was putting a marine pure block in my old tank to cycle for like 2 weeks and it’s been in the sump of my 125g for 5 days now.
Everything else was dry and new. No cheato yet either. I ghost feed a bit every day
 
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boboyo

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I have a mandarin too and I can’t seem to find an answer. Since they’re immune to ich and don’t take copper, would it be considered a fallow period to fallow my tank with a mandarin? I know no one knows everything but your input as an experienced reefer would be very appreciated.

also : why don’t you recommend the other 2 methods? Did you personally have a bad experience with any of those? As a newbie I’m scared I’d mess it up and kill all my fish since I’d have to monitor copper and ammonia.
 

DaddyFish

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I have a mandarin too and I can’t seem to find an answer. Since they’re immune to ich and don’t take copper, would it be considered a fallow period to fallow my tank with a mandarin? I know no one knows everything but your input as an experienced reefer would be very appreciated.

also : why don’t you recommend the other 2 methods? Did you personally have a bad experience with any of those? As a newbie I’m scared I’d mess it up and kill all my fish since I’d have to monitor copper and ammonia.
It takes a lot of resources to do TTM. It must be executed precisely and carefully. You have a lot going on and honestly I don't think you're ready to take on TTM with that many fish and no pre-established tanks. IMO you need a fast and solid treatment plan. CopperSafe is definitely my choice, not just copper, CopperSafe. I've treated a lot of Ich, and battled off two attacks of Velvet with great success using CopperSafe. You haven't lived miserably until you screw up a QT process and slip Velvet into your biggest DT.

You will need a Hanna Copper Tester for the long term. For the first dose of CopperSafe you can follow the instructions to the letter (5ml per 4-gal) and it will be spot-on at 2.0. After that, you must monitor the water and redose as copper gets absorbed by any media, rock etc. that's in the QT tank. That's what the copper checker is for, to test for absorption and make sure you keep it at 1.5 - 2.0 for at least 30-days.
 
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DaddyFish

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Understand that you have one fish showing substantial signs of Ich, but every fish, every grain of sand, every rock, everything in that tank now carries Ich. Without preventative measures it's only a matter of time before it spreads.
 

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Mandarins are not immune to Ich. As Jay said earlier, feeding the Mandarin in a QT tank will be a big challenge.
Maybe save the 20 for the Mandarin and put all the other fish in the 75?

To directly answer your question about fallow... No, ALL fish must be removed from the tank for it to be considered fallow. Even species that are "immune" to Ich can still carry the parasite and must undergo treatment if your goal is to house them in an Ich-free DT.

I once had Ich in a tank with a Snowflake Eel, which never gets Ich. But I transferred Ich with the eel when I placed it in another tank, and that was after doing a freshwater dip and Paraguard dip on the eel. I have a long list of rookie mistakes.

One final note... whether it's Ich or Velvet, the copper treatment is the same so you (or I) don't have to be absolutely correct about the treatment. The big difference is how long the fish will survive without getting treatment started. If it is Velvet, time is super critical.
 
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boboyo

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What if I took all the inverts/corals and put them in the 20g and did the copper safe directly in my current DT?

would that be considered a stupid idea? At least they’ll have a fully cycled tank and I’d have to worry a bit less about ammonia. Like I said earlier I don’t mind losing a few bucks on having to throw out rocks if it’s easier (as long as no fish dies on me). I’m just being curious

i really appreciate your advice and the time you took with me. I’ll try and get my hands on some coppersafe in the morning. Hopefully someone around here carries it. Thanks again!
 

DaddyFish

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What if I took all the inverts/corals and put them in the 20g and did the copper safe directly in my current DT?

would that be considered a stupid idea? At least they’ll have a fully cycled tank and I’d have to worry a bit less about ammonia. Like I said earlier I don’t mind losing a few bucks on having to throw out rocks if it’s easier (as long as no fish dies on me). I’m just being curious

i really appreciate your advice and the time you took with me. I’ll try and get my hands on some coppersafe in the morning. Hopefully someone around here carries it. Thanks again!
I think that's an excellent plan as long as you understand it will take some work to rid the existing 55-gal DT system of copper before it can house inverts and corals again. If you're planning to sell/give that tank away, do the right thing and make sure the new owner knows it had copper run at some time.
 
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boboyo

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That is a lot of fish for a 2 1/2 month old tank. I suspect that one or more of them brought a disease into the tank. Are there any invertebrates in the tank? If not, you may need to consider treating the whole tank. The trouble is that you are in Canada, and fish medications will be difficult for you to source quickly.
As mentioned, you do need to rule out low dissolved oxygen - do that by adding a strong airstone. Does the tank have a protein skimmer on it? Those help also.

Jay
Now that I’m looking for meds I know what you meant about the fish meds being difficult to source quickly.... most of the “banned ones” are still available on Amazon but take a while.

The only one I saw on Amazon with 1-day shipping is nox-ich which is malachite green based. Getting mixed reviews on that as well... some say malachite doesn’t work and only use copper but malachite green is a copper according to some quick googling...

i was also told ich-x is a 6 day treatment by my buddy who let me borrow is old frag tank. Which would be awesome since I don’t plan on doing everyone at once in case I make a mistake (doing the the really sick one first along with the ones that get bullied so they have time to get established before the bullies get in the new tank). Figured if I already remove let’s say 4-5 fish it will make it less stressful for my current tank inhabitants too. I don’t think ich-x would be easy to find around here and quickest shipping date on Amazon is next week

some stores sell “copper” when I call and I’m not sure which brands they carry and which one to go for
 
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boboyo

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@DaddyFish, as an expert, would you recommend any alternatives to coppersafe? Just in case no store has it. Do you have a top 3? Apparently there was a Canada-wide ban on most fish meds....
If I order nox-ich within the next 5 hours I’ll get it tomorrow. There’s “ich attack” at the lfs I went to today trying to by supplies for my new QT and I’m pretty sure the bigger stores have more variety and I plan on going to all of them tomorrow morning in my quest for the proper meds
 

DaddyFish

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@DaddyFish, as an expert, would you recommend any alternatives to coppersafe? Just in case no store has it. Do you have a top 3? Apparently there was a Canada-wide ban on most fish meds....
If I order nox-ich within the next 5 hours I’ll get it tomorrow. There’s “ich attack” at the lfs I went to today trying to by supplies for my new QT and I’m pretty sure the bigger stores have more variety and I plan on going to all of them tomorrow morning in my quest for the proper meds
I'm only "an expert" because I've had almost all of them and survived most. @Jay Hemdal is the expert!

I would probably list CopperSafe, Formalin (RALLY from Ruby Reef has some formalin), Cupramine, CopperPower, among the heavy hitters. I've personally not used RALLY. I use actual Formalin instead.

I lost a lot of fish trying to battle Ich with Hakari Ich-X and various herbal remedies. Which is how I landed on CopperSafe and it has worked every single time for me.
 
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boboyo

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I'm only "an expert" because I've had almost all of them and survived most. @Jay Hemdal is the expert!

I would probably list CopperSafe, Formalin (RALLY from Ruby Reef has some formalin), Cupramine, CopperPower, among the heavy hitters. I've personally not used RALLY. I use actual Formalin instead.

I lost a lot of fish trying to battle Ich with Hakari Ich-X and various herbal remedies. Which is how I landed on CopperSafe and it has worked every single time for me.
Thank you! I mean it’s not rocket science. Anyone with experience is an expert to me.

Quick question : do you have an hob or powerheads or air pump in your hospital tank? I have a shallow but big former frag tank.
 

DaddyFish

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Thank you! I mean it’s not rocket science. Anyone with experience is an expert to me.

Quick question : do you have an hob or powerheads or air pump in your hospital tank? I have a shallow but big former frag tank.
Yes, I have a 28-gal bowfront hospital/QT tank running a Seachem Tidal-110 HOB with a 8" air stone at the bottom of the tank. After I've completed copper meds and have reached the observation stage, I do a massive water change sequence and switch to an Oase Biomaster 600 canister filter on that tank without the added aeration.

I highly recommend blacking out the back, sides and bottom of your hospital tank. Keep the lighting low and only the front clear for observation. Add some textured ABS or a light layer of sand to the bottom to reduce reflections, and dispose of it when you reach the observation stage.
 

Jay Hemdal

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Now that I’m looking for meds I know what you meant about the fish meds being difficult to source quickly.... most of the “banned ones” are still available on Amazon but take a while.

The only one I saw on Amazon with 1-day shipping is nox-ich which is malachite green based. Getting mixed reviews on that as well... some say malachite doesn’t work and only use copper but malachite green is a copper according to some quick googling...

i was also told ich-x is a 6 day treatment by my buddy who let me borrow is old frag tank. Which would be awesome since I don’t plan on doing everyone at once in case I make a mistake (doing the the really sick one first along with the ones that get bullied so they have time to get established before the bullies get in the new tank). Figured if I already remove let’s say 4-5 fish it will make it less stressful for my current tank inhabitants too. I don’t think ich-x would be easy to find around here and quickest shipping date on Amazon is next week

some stores sell “copper” when I call and I’m not sure which brands they carry and which one to go for
I’ve never gotten malachite green / formalin treatments to work in marine aquariums, although it works really well in freshwater.
The three copper meds that work well are coppersafe, copper power and Cupramine. You need a good copper test kit also
Jay
 

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