Fu Manchu Lionfish - Ich Advice

[sawrip]

I have a Fu Manchu Lionfish which seems to be covered in a few white dots and sadly has a single cloudy eye, my antanta lionfish doesn't have any dots but did have a cloudy eye which is starting to clear.

Ich worries me but from the posts I've read from @lion king there is little point trying to treat any suspected ich or velvet, focus on live food, vitamins and water quality.

The tank is a FOWLR scorpion tank and wanted to know the views on using Chloroquine to treat the DT - could this risk the Lions life in a similar way to copper treatment longterm, what are peoples views of it with the scorps family? All the Lions are eating fine and just seem a little lethargic / cloudy eyes.

Regards testing only things to note are Nitrates are highish at 29 and Phosphate at 0.40.

 

[vetteguy53081]

I have a Fu Manchu Lionfish which seems to be covered in a few white dots and sadly has a single cloudy eye, my antanta lionfish doesn't have any dots but did have a cloudy eye which is starting to clear.

Ich worries me but from the posts I've read from @lion king there is little point trying to treat any suspected ich or velvet, focus on live food, vitamins and water quality.

The tank is a FOWLR scorpion tank and wanted to know the views on using Chloroquine to treat the DT - could this risk the Lions life in a similar way to copper treatment longterm, what are peoples views of it with the scorps family? All the Lions are eating fine and just seem a little lethargic / cloudy eyes.

Regards testing only things to note are Nitrates are highish at 29 and Phosphate at 0.40.

In your country, avloclor should work for these symptoms but dose at 85% of recommended dose to keep it safe for lion and add airstone for added oxygen

 

[sawrip]

In your country, avloclor should work for these symptoms but dose at 85% of recommended dose to keep it safe for lion and add airstone for added oxygen

Many thanks for the reply.

I have purchased 20 of these tablets for delivery tomorrow, is there an article on dosage or how to use them at all (crush them up and dosage for a 190 litre tank? )

 

[lion king]

Please share your experience with any treatment you use, also be advised that surviving treatment is only the beginning. As the liver processes these toxins, lions have been shown to develop liver damage that presents as liver failure soon afterwards. This is a big reason I am against many uses of medications unless it is life or death.

I don't prescribe to cp and don't find it to be effective much at all. The only people that advocate for it use it prophylactically and really have no evidence of success. I have rarely seen it actually work on actually disease cases. We stopped using this stuff 25 years ago because of the low efficacy. The same question could be asked about the potential liver damage with lions.

My protocol includes live food, including fish and optimum water quality. To stress optimum water quality. If your lions are of questionable health to begin with, then your decision is more difficult. Current and previous diet along with current overall health along with tank conditions play a major role.. I have witnessed many lions kept in optimum water conditions and fed a live diet qt'd from ich tanks and never be effected or recover from a mild attack. Once a lions health has been compromised or has been living on a poor diet and the attack is more than mild, I've seen little intervention work.

 

[sawrip]

Thanks I will keep people posted. It's a really difficult decision to make but my Clownfish and others I think are infected with it, I just can't see them surviving if I ride it out sadly, between a rock and a hard place really.

 

[sawrip]

Thanks I will keep people posted. It's a really difficult decision to make but my Clownfish and others I think are infected with it, I just can't see them surviving if I ride it out sadly, between a rock and a hard place really.

Also considering the Hypo method as it's an invert free fowlr tank with an ato hooked up - probably the best way of dealing with this.

 

[lion king]

I would also add the fu is definitely the most delicate, and I only see my method working when the lions are removed from the infected tank and kept in optimum water conditions and the infected tank is allowed to go fallow.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I have a Fu Manchu Lionfish which seems to be covered in a few white dots and sadly has a single cloudy eye, my antanta lionfish doesn't have any dots but did have a cloudy eye which is starting to clear.

Ich worries me but from the posts I've read from @lion king there is little point trying to treat any suspected ich or velvet, focus on live food, vitamins and water quality.

The tank is a FOWLR scorpion tank and wanted to know the views on using Chloroquine to treat the DT - could this risk the Lions life in a similar way to copper treatment longterm, what are peoples views of it with the scorps family? All the Lions are eating fine and just seem a little lethargic / cloudy eyes.

Regards testing only things to note are Nitrates are highish at 29 and Phosphate at 0.40.

I stopped using chloroquine back in 2014 after some really bad reactions - specifically in wrasse and lionfish.

In looking at the images, I can't rule out marine ich on the Fu Manchu, but I don't see spots on the other two - cloudy eyes by themselves can be a sign of flukes.

I routinely dose lions in amine-complexed copper products. Ionic copper is a lot riskier with these. However, you can't dose copper in-situ like that.

Hyposalinity is an option that would work for both ich and flukes.

Jay

 

[sawrip]

I stopped using chloroquine back in 2014 after some really bad reactions - specifically in wrasse and lionfish.

In looking at the images, I can't rule out marine ich on the Fu Manchu, but I don't see spots on the other two - cloudy eyes by themselves can be a sign of flukes.

I routinely dose lions in amine-complexed copper products. Ionic copper is a lot riskier with these. However, you can't dose copper in-situ like that.

Hyposalinity is an option that would work for both ich and flukes.

Jay

Thank you and @lion king very much for the reply.

So a turn of events this morning, the Fu has lost all his white spots (I suspect it was sand) and his eye has cleared up somewhat, taking a close look at all the other fish there seems to be no white spots I can identify.

Futher observations show the Starry Blenny I have is flashing off the sandbed, clamped fins and has lost some of his colour and weight, the largest Maroon Clown tends to hang around more at the surface of the tank and the Eel has head twitching and scratching. The biggest Lions seem to be yawning with more frequency, I guess to manually pull oxygen in due to gill flukes.

All fish are more lethargic and colours on some seem washed out.

This to me all seems to point to one problem I thought I dealt with three months ago - flukes. Will treat with PraziPro and hopefully it will clear this up, just rather happy it's not ich in truth.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Thank you and @lion king very much for the reply.

So a turn of events this morning, the Fu has lost all his white spots (I suspect it was sand) and his eye has cleared up somewhat, taking a close look at all the other fish there seems to be no white spots I can identify.

Futher observations show the Starry Blenny I have is flashing off the sandbed, clamped fins and has lost some of his colour and weight, the largest Maroon Clown tends to hang around more at the surface of the tank and the Eel has head twitching and scratching. The biggest Lions seem to be yawning with more frequency, I guess to manually pull oxygen in due to gill flukes.

All fish are more lethargic and colours on some seem washed out.

This to me all seems to point to one problem I thought I dealt with three months ago - flukes. Will treat with PraziPro and hopefully it will clear this up, just rather happy it's not ich in truth.

Do you know that with Prazipro, repeated additions become much less effective? What happens is that heterotrophic bacteria grow in the tank after each prazipro addition. They decompose it as a food source. Eventually, they can consume it as fast as you are adding it. This results in reports of "prazi resistant flukes" that you often hear about....the flukes are not resistant, but the prazi does stop working.

Hyposalinity is the best work-around for this, but of course, can't be used with inverts. Some people double the dose of praziquantel powder, but you cannot do that with Prazipro because of the solvent they use.

Jay

 

[sawrip]

Do you know that with Prazipro, repeated additions become much less effective? What happens is that heterotrophic bacteria grow in the tank after each prazipro addition. They decompose it as a food source. Eventually, they can consume it as fast as you are adding it. This results in reports of "prazi resistant flukes" that you often hear about....the flukes are not resistant, but the prazi does stop working.

Hyposalinity is the best work-around for this, but of course, can't be used with inverts. Some people double the dose of praziquantel powder, but you cannot do that with Prazipro because of the solvent they use.

Jay

That's rather insightful Jay, I wasn't aware of that and may explain things.

Due to the emergency nature of this I've treated with Prazi but longer term I need an invert tank to remove from DT for hyposalinity it would seem.

 

[lion king]

When you dosed the prazi, did you do 2 doses, the initial dose with one follow up about 5 days later. Many decide to skip this second dose, which sometimes means eggs hatch and the flukes later return. The initial dose does not effect unhatched eggs, then they hatch after the effectiveness of the 1st doe wears off. Do not increase recommended dose, dose to water volume not tank size, the only time I see bad results with lions is due to an overdose.

 

[sawrip]

When you dosed the prazi, did you do 2 doses, the initial dose with one follow up about 5 days later. Many decide to skip this second dose, which sometimes means eggs hatch and the flukes later return. The initial dose does not effect unhatched eggs, then they hatch after the effectiveness of the 1st doe wears off. Do not increase recommended dose, dose to water volume not tank size, the only time I see bad results with lions is due to an overdose.

Yes I did, I used a online Prazi calculator to work out my second dose (7 days after). I also took carbon, and uv and skimmer cup offline for the duration.

I am repeating this process, the shop owner I purchased it off stated that he often does a third dose a week after the second as well to completely mop up things - this is something I'm considering.
The only change this time I am doing is a large airstone in the tank to increase surface agitation.

 

[lion king]

Yes I did, I used a online Prazi calculator to work out my second dose (7 days after). I also took carbon, and uv and skimmer cup offline for the duration.

I am repeating this process, the shop owner I purchased it off stated that he often does a third dose a week after the second as well to completely mop up things - this is something I'm considering.
The only change this time I am doing is a large airstone in the tank to increase surface agitation.

Sounds like you have it in hand, as flukes do sound to be it. I usually do my 2nd dose in 4-5 days. I believe the strength of prazi decreases dramatically by the 3rd day. The hatched eggs laying eggs before the 7th day may be a possibility. As does a more resistant strain. All diseases have become more resistant, I had a tank wipeout because of a resistant strain of velvet, suppressed for over a month. Suppliers continue to use sub=therapeutic doses to manage parasites and diseases promoting the mutations into more virulent strains.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Sounds like you have it in hand, as flukes do sound to be it. I usually do my 2nd dose in 4-5 days. I believe the strength of prazi decreases dramatically by the 3rd day. The hatched eggs laying eggs before the 7th day may be a possibility. As does a more resistant strain. All diseases have become more resistant, I had a tank wipeout because of a resistant strain of velvet, suppressed for over a month. Suppliers continue to use sub=therapeutic doses to manage parasites and diseases promoting the mutations into more virulent strains.

We've worked out the egg cycle for gill flukes and Neobenedenia, and 8 or 9 days seems to be the best interval for a two treatment cycle. That said, 2x treatments often fail. 5x treatments are often needed to control Neo, since just one unhatched egg can start a reinfection. That's why I've mostly gone to half salinity treatment for flukes now.

"Prazi resistant flukes" is a misnomer - it is actually the decrease in efficacy of prazi over multiple treatments due to bacterial degradation that gives the appearance that the flukes themselves have built up resistance.

Jay

 

[sawrip]

We've worked out the egg cycle for gill flukes and Neobenedenia, and 8 or 9 days seems to be the best interval for a two treatment cycle. That said, 2x treatments often fail. 5x treatments are often needed to control Neo, since just one unhatched egg can start a reinfection. That's why I've mostly gone to half salinity treatment for flukes now.

"Prazi resistant flukes" is a misnomer - it is actually the decrease in efficacy of prazi over multiple treatments due to bacterial degradation that gives the appearance that the flukes themselves have built up resistance.

Jay

Yes I think myself wrongly assuming 2 treatments would be the end of it was a mistake and hence I'm in this position now.

Planning for three / possibly four this time to try and get on top of it. Far from ideal but hypo is not really an option until I've sorted a few things first - conches and bubble tip anemone mainly

 

[sawrip]

This morning I woke up and sadly the Blenny has passed away.

I am starting to suspect this is sadly velvet, in the video I have attached we can see the Maroon Clownfish struggling, also the rapid pace of things makes me think it's velvet.

@lion king have you any thoughts - I'm rather desperate with this. I guess all that can be done is sit it out and see who survives really but that won't get rid of the parasite overall.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

This morning I woke up and sadly the Blenny has passed away.

I am starting to suspect this is sadly velvet, in the video I have attached we can see the Maroon Clownfish struggling, also the rapid pace of things makes me think it's velvet.

@lion king have you any thoughts - I'm rather desperate with this. I guess all that can be done is sit it out and see who survives really but that won't get rid of the parasite overall.

Sorry, no video was attached.

If it isn't velvet (pending the video) I still think that hyposalinity would be the way to go, however it is slow to work, and once fish loss has begun, additional fish loss may occur as you dial in the lower salinity.

Hyposalinity

Hyposalinity Jay Hemdal 2021 This term refers to a long-term bath treatment for marine fishes in which the salt content of the water is lowered and held below the point that certain parasites can survive. The salt level reached, and the time of the treatment are the two variables...

www.reef2reef.com

If it is velvet, then amine-chelated copper or chloroquine are the best options.

Jay

 

[sawrip]

Sorry, no video was attached.

If it isn't velvet (pending the video) I still think that hyposalinity would be the way to go, however it is slow to work, and once fish loss has begun, additional fish loss may occur as you dial in the lower salinity.

Hyposalinity

Hyposalinity Jay Hemdal 2021 This term refers to a long-term bath treatment for marine fishes in which the salt content of the water is lowered and held below the point that certain parasites can survive. The salt level reached, and the time of the treatment are the two variables...

www.reef2reef.com

If it is velvet, then amine-chelated copper or chloroquine are the best options.

Jay

 

[lion king]

This morning I woke up and sadly the Blenny has passed away.

I am starting to suspect this is sadly velvet, in the video I have attached we can see the Maroon Clownfish struggling, also the rapid pace of things makes me think it's velvet.

@lion king have you any thoughts - I'm rather desperate with this. I guess all that can be done is sit it out and see who survives really but that won't get rid of the parasite overall.

I would remove the lions to a qt/ observational tank, maintain pristine conditions and feed live foods including fish, guppies or appropriate sized mollies along with ghost shrimp. I would gut load the feeders with New Spectrum algae max pellets. I know it's not the popular option, but I believe food is medicine and I have seen it work. Really healthy lions with a robust immune system from live foods are very resistant to protazoan diseases. They have a super charged slime coating that will shed to protect them.

If you can not move them for some reason, sadly I have no option of treatment that I have seen work. I have also seen lions survive in the same tank with same protocol of pristine water conditions and live feedings. Velvet is a different animal than ich and alot more deadly.