GARF Bansai. Growing, but pale.

[jda]

Forget about redfield ratio. Does not apply to what you are doing.

True GARF will thrive under a lot of different conditions. The one in my tank is under about 650 PAR from a MH and looks great and grows almost too fast. This is also under NSW levels of N and P, but lots of availability. I have also seen it thrive with lower lighting, higher residual N and P levels and even in neglected tanks.

I am serious - don't chase anything for this one. It is just not worth it. If anything, your tank just needs to mature... I don't see much coralline in there and a bit of slimy algae.

 

[Potatohead]

Thank you all for your input.
It is not a wild piece. Was fragged locally for my LFS by a local fragger.
I can try to get into contact with her and see what she says about lineage.
Aside from that, for those of you saying PO4 is low, what is the logic behind that? I was under the impression that PO4 should be kept low, but detectible. I read a lot of stuff putting .02-.03 as ideal.
Is it because you are looking for that ~16:1 NO3/PO4 ratio? (Redfield ratio?)
If that is the case, I am not confident in my NO3 test results. Old test kit came in at 5-10. New one showing 16-32 and did not change after a 50% water change. Thinking I got a bad kit, so I have a Nyos on the way.

IF it is determined that my PO4 is too low and nitrates are that high, how do you suggest I increase PO4 without raising nitrates?
I do not run GFO. Just ROX carbon.
There is some stuff out there that says cheaper carbon will leech some PO4.
I could switch to that?
Or, increase plant based foods? Seems they have a higher phosphorus content

People trying to keep phosphate really low, IMO, has killed more corals in the hobby than just about anything else, especially in newer tanks. People are so afraid of algae they are killing their corals. Having phosphate too high might lead to duller colors and slower growth, but not much death.

Dose some phosphate to get your phosphate up to the ~.08 range. There are many options, I use trisodium phosphate, there are also commercially available products from Brightwell and other brands. Dosing phosphate alone will also bring your nitrate down a bit, although this can take a couple months. Once that starts to happen you can slowly back off the phosphate dosing and start to feed the tank more if you need to, because everything is now in balance.

Dosing phosphate is absolutely the best thing I have done for my tank, and it's not even close. My growth has increased easily 3-4 times, with better color and better polyp extension, and less algae/cyano/dinos.

 

[SamMule]

People trying to keep phosphate really low, IMO, has killed more corals in the hobby than just about anything else, especially in newer tanks. People are so afraid of algae they are killing their corals. Having phosphate too high might lead to duller colors and slower growth, but not much death.

Dose some phosphate to get your phosphate up to the ~.08 range. There are many options, I use trisodium phosphate, there are also commercially available products from Brightwell and other brands. Dosing phosphate alone will also bring your nitrate down a bit, although this can take a couple months. Once that starts to happen you can slowly back off the phosphate dosing and start to feed the tank more if you need to, because everything is now in balance.

Dosing phosphate is absolutely the best thing I have done for my tank, and it's not even close. My growth has increased easily 3-4 times, with better color and better polyp extension, and less algae/cyano/dinos.

Very interesting!
Do you mind sharing which product you use and how you go about dosing it?
Might be worth a shot to get things balanced.

 

[Fishfinder]

I’d say all your coral looks pale

 

[Potatohead]

Very interesting!
Do you mind sharing which product you use and how you go about dosing it?
Might be worth a shot to get things balanced.

Trisodium phosphate, which is available at any hardware store labeled 'TSP.' You can also get food grade online, but you add such a small amount that I don't think it really matters.

The formula is to mix 1.88 grams of TSP into 1L of RO water to make a solution. Each 1 ml of the solution will increase 100L (26 gallons) of water .01 ppm.

Now, dosing phosphate is not like dosing calcium or alkalinity in that it generally takes several days to see a result. Depending on how much your rock/sand is binding it may take quite a while before you start to see it in the water column - But that's ok. Just keep dosing ~.08 per day, test every few days and watch your corals.

 

[jda]

If you are going to chase phosphate, make sure that you have a Hannah Ultra Low since it is the only tool that can help you with it. Also, understand the relationship between aragonite/calcite/dolomite and phosphate and how it can bind a lot and act as a buffer with low levels (good) and a reservoir with high levels (bad). Lastly, study up on the difference in what building blocks and carbon does for a coral - P is not a food. It is good to understand the whole picture. Dr. RHF had some great articles on phosphate if they have not been taken down.

 

[SamMule]

If you are going to chase phosphate, make sure that you have a Hannah Ultra Low since it is the only tool that can help you with it. Also, understand the relationship between aragonite/calcite/dolomite and phosphate and how it can bind a lot and act as a buffer with low levels (good) and a reservoir with high levels (bad). Lastly, study up on the difference in what building blocks and carbon does for a coral - P is not a food. It is good to understand the whole picture. Dr. RHF had some great articles on phosphate if they have not been taken down.

Thank you, I will try to find the articles you are referring to.
I'm pretty sure I read one from him awhile back that suggested .02-.03ppm was optimal.
I would much rather not have to dose anything or "chase" phosphate numbers. From what I remember, as long as they are detectible, it is OK.
And yes, I am using the hannah ULR meter.

FWIW, I dose 10ml of red sea reef energy AB+ every other day and feed reef chili a couple times per week.
I don't feel like any corals are being "starved"

My fish have been getting pellets daily and about half a cube of frozen food a couple times per week.

Will increasing frozen food frequency and decreasing pellets help balance things out?
My nitrates have definitely increased since I started the AB+ but PO4 hasn't changed.
Maybe that is putting things out of whack?

 

[jda]

I have ocean-level phosphate levels of about .005 to .01 (1 to 4 ppb on hannah) - not NLS or ULNS, just natural. This is no issue whatsoever - low, but detectable is what I shoot for. There is a common message board narrative that more phosphate does more for the coral, but it is not food - P is a building block and if you have some excess, then you have enough. Residual levels on a test kit are fools gold anyway. Availability with heavy feeding and heavy export are the goal, but people cannot measure this and their thinking is often too simple as a result.

There are people who do strip P too far with chemicals or media, but that is what it takes and natural methods seem to always leave enough to drive the equilibrium forward. Some of these tanks can be Ultra Low, or Low systems, but it take media and chemicals in most cases. Don't confuse natural (low but detectable) with Low or ULN tanks which are usually not detectable at all in most situations.

I think that you are OK with P... just mentioning if you decided to go the route of dosing since people can/do overdo it.

Your rock/sand is probably currently binding the P that you are not seeing rise - this can be a problem in the future in some cases. Export more. N should stay lower, but detectable too - remember that corals will do better with ammonia/ammonium so feeding more gets this done and where heavy throughput is also good. Feeding the fish more is always good if you can handle the export.

 

[ScottB]

Trisodium phosphate, which is available at any hardware store labeled 'TSP.' You can also get food grade online, but you add such a small amount that I don't think it really matters.

The formula is to mix 1.88 grams of TSP into 1L of RO water to make a solution. Each 1 ml of the solution will increase 100L (26 gallons) of water .01 ppm.

Now, dosing phosphate is not like dosing calcium or alkalinity in that it generally takes several days to see a result. Depending on how much your rock/sand is binding it may take quite a while before you start to see it in the water column - But that's ok. Just keep dosing ~.08 per day, test every few days and watch your corals.

"TSP" is often sold as a cleaning agent. I bought some at Ace Hardware. Just before mixing and dosing I thought to double check the ingredients. There was NO TRISODIUM PHOSPHATE in it. Be sure to look up the ingredients online.

This is what I ended up using:

 

[SamMule]

I have ocean-level phosphate levels of about .005 to .01 (1 to 4 ppb on hannah) - not NLS or ULNS, just natural. This is no issue whatsoever - low, but detectable is what I shoot for. There is a common message board narrative that more phosphate does more for the coral, but it is not food - P is a building block and if you have some excess, then you have enough. Residual levels on a test kit are fools gold anyway. Availability with heavy feeding and heavy export are the goal, but people cannot measure this and their thinking is often too simple as a result.

There are people who do strip P too far with chemicals or media, but that is what it takes and natural methods seem to always leave enough to drive the equilibrium forward. Some of these tanks can be Ultra Low, or Low systems, but it take media and chemicals in most cases. Don't confuse natural (low but detectable) with Low or ULN tanks which are usually not detectable at all in most situations.

I think that you are OK with P... just mentioning if you decided to go the route of dosing since people can/do overdo it.

Your rock/sand is probably currently binding the P that you are not seeing rise - this can be a problem in the future in some cases. Export more. N should stay lower, but detectable too - remember that corals will do better with ammonia/ammonium so feeding more gets this done and where heavy throughput is also good. Feeding the fish more is always good if you can handle the export.

So, if I understand what you are saying, the more nutrients I have going through the nitrogen cycle, the more "food" there will available for the corals.
The trick is keeping the resulting nitrates from accumulating.
My skimmer is running very dry, so it doesn't pull much out. I could set it to run wetter, but then won't that defeat the purpose of feeding more?Since it pulls out the matter before it can be broken down, it never has a chance to be utilized as ammonia.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Assure salinity is accurate and dose aminos and supplement such as brightwell Koral color

 

[shred5]

I have ocean-level phosphate levels of about .005 to .01 (1 to 4 ppb on hannah) - not NLS or ULNS, just natural. This is no issue whatsoever - low, but detectable is what I shoot for. There is a common message board narrative that more phosphate does more for the coral, but it is not food - P is a building block and if you have some excess, then you have enough. Residual levels on a test kit are fools gold anyway. Availability with heavy feeding and heavy export are the goal, but people cannot measure this and their thinking is often too simple as a result.

There are people who do strip P too far with chemicals or media, but that is what it takes and natural methods seem to always leave enough to drive the equilibrium forward. Some of these tanks can be Ultra Low, or Low systems, but it take media and chemicals in most cases. Don't confuse natural (low but detectable) with Low or ULN tanks which are usually not detectable at all in most situations.

I think that you are OK with P... just mentioning if you decided to go the route of dosing since people can/do overdo it.

Your rock/sand is probably currently binding the P that you are not seeing rise - this can be a problem in the future in some cases. Export more. N should stay lower, but detectable too - remember that corals will do better with ammonia/ammonium so feeding more gets this done and where heavy throughput is also good. Feeding the fish more is always good if you can handle the export.

I find it funny all this chasing phosphate too. Dump some phosphate in is the new answer for everything.

Remember a not to long ago it was bio pellets. It was the answer for everything.

 

[jda]

Ammonia/Ammonium come from the fish and other organisms and does not get skimmed.

Heavy feeding, heavy skimming, fuge and water changes is what I do for ultimate availability with heavy import and heavy export.

Coral food comes from the lighting which the zoox turns into carbon/sugars. N and P do not feed coral, but is used as building blocks to repair and create new organic tissue. Sugar provides the energy. This is too simple, but the light feeds your corals (bricklayer) and the N and P are bricks and mortar. You need a lot of bricklayers and just enough bricks and mortar at the right time to build the structure - if you have too many bricks laying around, then nobody can work with all of the mess and if you make too much mortar it will cure before you can use it. (most corals can recycle N and P for repair and maintaining, so you likely only need new N and P to grow) Just a trace of N and P is enough for the corals, but higher quality and quantity of lighting can provide more energy to the coral - this is a lot to get into here.

 

[Potatohead]

"TSP" is often sold as a cleaning agent. I bought some at Ace Hardware. Just before mixing and dosing I thought to double check the ingredients. There was NO TRISODIUM PHOSPHATE in it. Be sure to look up the ingredients online.

This is what I ended up using:

I can't see your picture, but the brand I use is Recochem

I'm not going to sit here and argue with jda, his approach obviously works. But what I do know is that my tank absolutely transformed by dosing phosphate, and I am not alone in my findings. I ran my phos in this tank around .02 for several years (four) because that's what online told me was necessary for acropora. I did not run gfo for at least the last 2 - 2.5 years of that. I now run it around .1 and the difference is totally remarkable. I truly believe that most people who kept phos around .02-.03 for years and years were using garbage test kits for results that low and it was actually higher than they thought. Only since the ULR came out have people started to understand this better.

IMO skimming wet or dry doesn't make a lot of difference other than the junk either ends up on the neck, or in the cup. I skim dry and clean the neck out with a rubber spatula about once a week. I only remove the cup to empty it maybe every 4-6 weeks.

This is a good read, complete with pictures:

I'm dying on this hill - Phosphate is more important than alkalinity

My tank has been running for about three years. It is acro dominated and for the most part has done ok. I have always thought my growth was a little slow, and colors were just alright. Maybe like a C+ grade. My parameters are always quite stable, and I run my alkalinity in the low 7's. I have...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[ScottB]

I can't see your picture, but the brand I use is Recochem

I'm not going to sit here and argue with jda, his approach obviously works. But what I do know is that my tank absolutely transformed by dosing phosphate, and I am not alone in my findings. I ran my phos in this tank around .02 for several years (four) because that's what online told me was necessary for acropora. I did not run gfo for at least the last 2 - 2.5 years of that. I now run it around .1 and the difference is totally remarkable. I truly believe that most people who kept phos around .02-.03 for years and years were using garbage test kits for results that low and it was actually higher than they thought. Only since the ULR came out have people started to understand this better.

IMO skimming wet or dry doesn't make a lot of difference other than the junk either ends up on the neck, or in the cup. I skim dry and clean the neck out with a rubber spatula about once a week. I only remove the cup to empty it maybe every 4-6 weeks.

This is a good read, complete with pictures:

I'm dying on this hill - Phosphate is more important than alkalinity

My tank has been running for about three years. It is acro dominated and for the most part has done ok. I have always thought my growth was a little slow, and colors were just alright. Maybe like a C+ grade. My parameters are always quite stable, and I run my alkalinity in the low 7's. I have...

www.reef2reef.com

I am around the same level with heavy in / somewhat heavy out. I have not had to dose since I doubled my fish load and have been around more often to feed 2 or 3 times a day.

And yes, I followed that thread with interest. I am sure I wrote in it as well.

 

[SamMule]

Ammonia/Ammonium come from the fish and other organisms and does not get skimmed.

Heavy feeding, heavy skimming, fuge and water changes is what I do for ultimate availability with heavy import and heavy export.

Coral food comes from the lighting which the zoox turns into carbon/sugars. N and P do not feed coral, but is used as building blocks to repair and create new organic tissue. Sugar provides the energy. This is too simple, but the light feeds your corals (bricklayer) and the N and P are bricks and mortar. You need a lot of bricklayers and just enough bricks and mortar at the right time to build the structure - if you have too many bricks laying around, then nobody can work with all of the mess and if you make too much mortar it will cure before you can use it. (most corals can recycle N and P for repair and maintaining, so you likely only need new N and P to grow) Just a trace of N and P is enough for the corals, but higher quality and quantity of lighting can provide more energy to the coral - this is a lot to get into here.

That is a great analogy. Easy for a noob like me to understand. Thank you!
I received my new Nyos nitrate test kit today. Nitrates came in at 5-12. Closer to 5. That is right in line with what I was getting with my original red sea nitrate test kit, so I am much more confident in those results.

Might up my feeding a bit to get some more nutrients into the system. Maybe buy another fish or two.

No reason to mess around with dosing if I don't have to!

I don't want to do anything too drastic, as my tank is looking pretty good overall.

 

[Daddy-o]

Instead of feeding more at the same time, I like to add another small meal. I try to feed the fish in my SPS reef 3 times a day.
Cheers Mark