Hanna Phosphorus checker

[fishbox]

And just because Hanna says we can't do something, does not mean we don't wanna know why? Curiosity and knowledge are our best friends in driving this hobby forward.

 

[fishbox]

To add my personal experience here, I broke a glass cuvette by dropping it. Bought a new cuvette set, and the results were different with the new cuvette than the old one that hadn't broke. I use the Hanna glass cleaner and cloth before each test and after shaking to keep the glass as clean as possible. Replacing the cuvettes once in a while is probably a good idea too.

Did your numbers get higher or lower after changing the vials and how big of a difference did you see?

 

[MnFish1]

Not trying to be offensive? If you have to say that then you know you are. I read the instructions. Would you like me to print them for you? According to the instructions the 3 minute built-in timer is optional. You also get an instant reading AFTER it was already zeroed out and you can wait 3 mins on your own. I stated that in the first post.

I'm not contacting Hanna because, frankly, I'm not losing sleep over it. I was responding to the thread, not to you. The OP was asking about different readings. My post was another relevant method that's available for use on the unit that gives different readings.

After it's zeroed out, and wants C2, you can use the built-in timer or wait 3 mins and tap the button for the reading instead of holding it down, per the INSTRUCTIONS.

After holding it down and waiting, it gives a reading. If you then TAP the button after that reading, it gives it's instant reading as if you waited 3 mins and pressed the button yourself. That reading already accounts for it being zeroed out.

But thanks for the input Mr Hanna, but nowhere in your instructions does it say you cannot do that. It's simply using 1 option after another. We call it double checking. No offense.

Then make your point more clearly. Of course you can either use the timer or wait 3 minutes on your own - thats been posted at least once - here - I thought you had some new information. (i.e. you had a different opinion that whats in the instructions).

 

[MnFish1]

With all due respect man you got to quit saying that no one in these forums can possibly answer that question unless they work there. There's thousands of members on this forum and there is a chance that someone has already made this phone call with that exact question. I mean hell we wouldn't have an equipment forum if it wasn't for asking questions like this and we as end-users wouldn't be modifying our equipment to better our hobby if it weren't for questions being asked on the Forum

Yeah - I made the phone call it was posted pages ago. Thats why I said it lol. They make a product they say how to use it. This is not like debating what alkalinity is best or whether to use sand or no sand in the bottom of a tank. Its the directions in the test.

 

[MnFish1]

In case you missed it - this is what Hanna technical support said (posted days ago)

I just called Hanna techincal support here are the answers:

1. The test is to be read 5 minutes +- 15 seconds (after the reagent is added to the vial.)
2. The vial needs to be mixed for "at least" 1 minute 45 seconds - preferably 2 minutes. (He said the 1:45 is for those who find it difficult to accomplish everything in the time allowed.). He also said they realize the shut off time is too short:)
3. Repeated testing - and tests done after longer than 5 minutes are not valid. The test is designed to be read at about 5 minutes.
4. If you want to do repeated testing, you have to obtain a new sample and repeat the entire test.
5. As mentioned earlier - its best to use the same cuvette for both the control and the test.

 

[MnFish1]

The difference is that you cant do that - and have it be accurate. No offense - read the instructions. If not - call Hanna and ask them - probably it is partially re-zeroing the meter. The test is designed to be read at 5 minutes. Why are you asking here - just call the technical support and ask them - then let us know - again - not trying to be offensive - but - how would anyone here know how the chip in the reader works - or the answer to your question - which would be similar to:

I do the test - with 2 vials - then I set the test vial in the sun for 30 seconds - at noon. I re-zero with the vial - and the results are sometimes the same and sometimes they are different - why would that be>??

BTW - I didnt mean that you cant wait the 3 minutes with the vial outside the checker - I meant that repeatedly pressing the button is not recommended. Why - in any case would you do it? Fun? you have no basis to do it - and you have no basis to know what to do with the results. Cicking the button over and over for 30 seconds doesn't make it more - or less accurate - in any case only the first one is valid.

 

[MnFish1]

And just because Hanna says we can't do something, does not mean we don't wanna know why? Curiosity and knowledge are our best friends in driving this hobby forward.

You're correct - you can do anything you want. But - it wont make the test more accurate than the instructions that come with the test. I also agree with you about curiosity - and moving the hobby forward.... Whats the best alkalinity for SPS coral is a debatable topic. The instructions of a scientific test is not - and If there are questions - all I said was - go to the company and ask them - I dont think thats a novel concept. Some things are opinion. Some things are not.

 

[Laith]

The first time I purchased one of these checkers was around five years ago I think. And the instructions at the time DID state to use two vials, one for the control and the second for the reagent. I consistently got different results even testing samples five minutes apart I would get different results (and not just one or two ppb but multiples off). Tried new reagents and still could not get consistent results. I threw the kit away.

Then recently I heard that these tests had improved in quality, accuracy and consistency. So I purchased a new one a couple of months ago. And now the instructions clearly state to use the same vial for the control and the test. I now get consistent results and accurate as measured against a known reference test. Could the difference have been as simple as the change in instructions?:confused: Probably helps as you are "zeroing" the unit with the same glass as you are testing with which makes more sense.

One thing that Hanna has never adequately explained is the short timeout of the unit. This must be a simple variable in the firmware that can be changed from let's say 180 seconds to 300 or more seconds. Despite the repeated complaints and comments of their user community on this issue they have never changed it. I assume that it forces people to take the measurement as quickly as possible because the longer you wait, the less accurate the result? Then why not just say so? :p

 

[MnFish1]

It's called a FORUM for people to discuss things. For example, inaccuracies in the equipment. We don't have to have a concrete reason WHY it does it, we're just sharing our experiences. Again, no offense, but maybe you should read the instructions on what a forum is.

Ok - and I just shared my experience. My experience on this particular thread is that several people were not doing this particular test correctly and getting potentially erroneous results. For that reason I called and asked Hanna (because they didnt'respond here). Discuss away - But - repeated tests by pressing the button over and over aren't supported by the product - and are meaningless.

 

[MnFish1]

The first time I purchased one of these checkers was around five years ago I think. And the instructions at the time DID state to use two vials, one for the control and the second for the reagent. I consistently got different results even testing samples five minutes apart I would get different results (and not just one or two ppb but multiples off). Tried new reagents and still could not get consistent results. I threw the kit away.

Then recently I heard that these tests had improved in quality, accuracy and consistency. So I purchased a new one a couple of months ago. And now the instructions clearly state to use the same vial for the control and the test. I now get consistent results and accurate as measured against a known reference test. Could the difference have been as simple as the change in instructions?:confused: Probably helps as you are "zeroing" the unit with the same glass as you are testing with which makes more sense.

One thing that Hanna has never adequately explained is the short timeout of the unit. This must be a simple variable in the firmware that can be changed from let's say 180 seconds to 300 or more seconds. Despite the repeated complaints and comments of their user community on this issue they have never changed it. I assume that it forces people to take the measurement as quickly as possible because the longer you wait, the less accurate the result? Then why not just say so? :p

When I called them - they stated 'we know the time for the time-out ' should have been longer... But - that the test is supposed to be read 5 minutes after adding the reagent to the vial.

 

[fishbox]

In case you missed it - this is what Hanna technical support said (posted days ago)

I just called Hanna techincal support here are the answers:

1. The test is to be read 5 minutes +- 15 seconds (after the reagent is added to the vial.)
2. The vial needs to be mixed for "at least" 1 minute 45 seconds - preferably 2 minutes. (He said the 1:45 is for those who find it difficult to accomplish everything in the time allowed.). He also said they realize the shut off time is too short:)
3. Repeated testing - and tests done after longer than 5 minutes are not valid. The test is designed to be read at about 5 minutes.
4. If you want to do repeated testing, you have to obtain a new sample and repeat the entire test.
5. As mentioned earlier - its best to use the same cuvette for both the control and the test.

My question is not answered in this. My question is why can only the 1st result be read accurately? If done at the recommended 5 minutes I don't see how a second reading within 2 seconds would not be valid. That's what I'm trying to understand. And I believe you stated a few post back that you didn't have the answer for that. My Curious mind just wants to know why with the same reader reading the same solution Within 2 seconds gives us altered results?

 

[Forsaken77]

My question is not answered in this. My question is why can only the 1st result be read accurately? If done at the recommended 5 minutes I don't see how a second reading within 2 seconds would not be valid. That's what I'm trying to understand. And I believe you stated a few post back that you didn't have the answer for that. My Curious mind just wants to know why with the same reader reading the same solution Within 2 seconds gives us altered results?

That was exactly my point! Thank you. He keeps saying that Hanna says 5 mins blah blah blah. The test is taken in 5 mins and yet 2 seconds later, with the same bottle, same liquid, same 5 minute window... it gives a different result. He says that when you keep pressing the button it's meaningless. It's not. It's reading the same sample and should give around the same result, yet it doesn't. Some people just can't admit when they're wrong.

I can see a margin of error because it's reading in ppb, but the difference is too great. I also don't buy into a company trying to make excuses for their product, like the time out window that's never corrected. I followed the instructions to a tee, then double check it by hitting the button to read it again right away after the first result. Two seconds later should not yeild a different result.

I actually don't believe it's reading the sample itself directly. I think there must be some algorithm built-in with the timer. That would be the only explanation imo, and why they never fixed it after so many complaints.

 

[Waalker]

How are others using the Hanna ULR conducting their test?

My procedure:
1. Wipe cuvette clear inside and out with micro fiber cloth.
2. Tap reagent packet until reagent is gathered in one corner of packet, cut the packet open on right angle sides, fold half of the packet into a triangle pour spout and set aside.
3. Fill cuvette with 10ml tank water.
4. Zero the checker with the same cuvette.
5. Take cuvette out, unscrew the lid and pour/tap reagent into sample water.
6. Recap and shake for 2 minutes (timed on smartphone).
7. Place cuvette back in checker in exactly the same orientation as before.
8. Press and hold down the button until 3 minute countdown counter appears.
9. Sip a cold one until final number appears.

From the way I do it, the reagent is in solution for 5 minutes (give or take a few seconds) until final reading. Should I be waiting longer to take a reading?

I just got my ULR last night and tried the test for the first time, I basically follow the above steps but seeing your #8 makes me feel like I need to read the instructions more carefully because I did NOT do that!

 

[Laith]

hitting the button to read it again

This may be where the problem lies: how are you guessing that hitting the button again after the unit gives a result actually reads it again?:)

As this is not explained in the instructions, we have no idea what it does when you "hit the button again"... Or am I missing something?

 

[fishbox]

This may be where the problem lies: how are you guessing that hitting the button again after the unit gives a result actually reads it again?:)

As this is not explained in the instructions, we have no idea what it does when you "hit the button again"... Or am I missing something?

Well the instructions say that you don't need to hold the button to use the 3 min timer and that you can just tap the button to get an instant reading. So, "in theory" after you get your 3 min reading, you should be able to tap that button to get another "instant reading". However, it could very well be that once you use the 3 min timer that the "tap for an instant reading option" is no longer available and that "tap" feature is showing something else. So that's what we're trying to figure out.

 

[fishbox]

I just got my ULR last night and tried the test for the first time, I basically follow the above steps but seeing your #8 makes me feel like I need to read the instructions more carefully because I did NOT do that!

I believe someone else in this thread had that issue. After they shook their Regent for 2 minutes and pressed and held the button they never got the 3 minute timer. If I remember correctly it was fixed by replacing the battery. So give it a shot

 

[fishbox]

That was exactly my point! Thank you. He keeps saying that Hanna says 5 mins blah blah blah. The test is taken in 5 mins and yet 2 seconds later, with the same bottle, same liquid, same 5 minute window... it gives a different result. He says that when you keep pressing the button it's meaningless. It's not. It's reading the same sample and should give around the same result, yet it doesn't. Some people just can't admit when they're wrong.

I can see a margin of error because it's reading in ppb, but the difference is too great. I also don't buy into a company trying to make excuses for their product, like the time out window that's never corrected. I followed the instructions to a tee, then double check it by hitting the button to read it again right away after the first result. Two seconds later should not yeild a different result.

I actually don't believe it's reading the sample itself directly. I think there must be some algorithm built-in with the timer. That would be the only explanation imo, and why they never fixed it after so many complaints.

Well I do appreciate his input as it has been beneficial to the thread. I just don't agree with him saying that we need to contact Hannah and not ask questions here as no one here will know the answer. It is our job as smart consumers to know the ins and outs of how our products work. It is our job to question why they do certain things and don't have the capabilities to do other things. If it weren't for us as consumers doing that we would never have improvements on products. On top of that it is a very huge claim to state no one else knows the answer besides Hannah. I mean hell if this thread weren't started no one would have made the initial phone call to find out some of the information that he already found out. But someone had to ask the question in order for that information to be put on the form and be shared with others. So again I can appreciate the information that he shared but I'm looking for just a little bit more information.

 

[Krzydmnd]

I am not suggesting anyone change their own methods on this testing, but I just spent about 25 minutes running this test in all manners from exactly by the book, (same vial, mixing, alignment, timing, etc...) to using different vials and not using the 3 minute timer and my result variations were negligible. Lowest number was 14 and highest was 18 which is .043 to .05 converted which is in my range.

 

[John Hughes]

My meter turned off during the two minutes of mixing... Should I use one vial to zero and the other to test so this doesn't turn off?

 

[Krzydmnd]

My meter turned off during the two minutes of mixing... Should I use one vial to zero and the other to test so this doesn't turn off?

That's part of the debate about proper procedures. Something I thought was weird too, if they suggest you mix for at least two minutes but the unit shuts off 2 minutes after C1. But they also suggest you use the same vial.

Soooooo...