HANNA VS ICP, way different numbers..

[IPT]

I don’t know which is more likely to be accurate between the Hanna and Salifert nitrate. One can make a standard, but I’m not sure it is worth the effort. I don’t think exact nutrient level measurement is especially critical. My recommended target ranges include most of the measurements you mention.

I'd like to drop the levels (but not bottom them out). Hopefully even if it is "inaccurate", it will be doing so in a consistent manner so the trend is what I think it is.

 

[IPT]

.As for the hair algae, if it were me, I'd be trying to add a critter or two to eat it.

:) - I did, I added two tangs and a Lawn mower blenny to a 40 Gallon sump, a bunch of snails. Hair Algae there is still rampant! Main has very little of it except a few crevices were the Rabbitfish can't get to it.

 

[IPT]

Last summer I actually had a different experience.

Phosphates were hovering fine as far as I was concerned.

Sent in an ICP and got this

I have a marine master that I use regularly and an egg checker along with multiple lots of reagents so for the next few days I went through all the combos and eventually accepted the discrepancy

Yes, as long as the discrepancy is consistent and I know it's there I can live with that. I guess in part I was looking for a way to "test" the HANNA and verify how much it was off. I guess I will just have to believe it is off, but consistent in how much it is off by and just follow trends and the tanks health.

 

[IPT]

Hello,
The main challenge with phosphate measurement in shipped samples is its limited stability. That’s why we chemically stabilize phosphate at the time of sampling (as done in the ICP-MS test kit).

All the best,
Christoph

This is interesting. I live in Alaska so usually it takes 7-10 days from the time I ship it out to the time I get the results. If it "degrades", or does whatever it does over time would that increase of decrease the reading?

 

[BryanM]

:) - I did, I added two tangs and a Lawn mower blenny to a 40 Gallon sump, a bunch of snails. Hair Algae there is still rampant! Main has very little of it except a few crevices were the Rabbitfish can't get to it.

I don't see a lot online for a lawnmower blenny eating hair algae. Depending on the tang, maybe.

I See emerald and pitho crabs citing the most for taking care of this issue.

 

[ReneReef]

I'd like to drop the levels (but not bottom them out). Hopefully even if it is "inaccurate", it will be doing so in a consistent manner so the trend is what I think it is.

Why?
Keeping phosphate below 0.1 is an outdated practise if you would ask me.

 

[CHSUB]

Why?
Keeping phosphate below 0.1 is an outdated practise if you would ask me.

My tank ran undetectable po4 with Hanna for months(~18 months), levels gradually reached > 0.1 ppm. Color shifted slowly, with the aid of GFO po4 is now 0.05 and full brilliance of color has returned. If you ask me, the hobby has gotten lazy….with 100% blue lights corals glow with higher levels of zooxanthellae, I’m however not a fan of a windex tank.

 

[RobertK]

So what's with the HANNA No3 tester? Is mine drifting? Is there a way to calibrate or test it accuracy?

You could buy the standardized solutions to check its accuracy if you want.

https://aquacave.com/hanna-hi782-11...MIpPT1tfXQkwMVPTCtBh1M2RoIEAQYASABEgIM0vD_BwE

 

[IPT]

I don't see a lot online for a lawnmower blenny eating hair algae. Depending on the tang, maybe.

I See emerald and pitho crabs citing the most for taking care of this issue.

Funny, I have seen a lot suggesting they do. I just searched again and it appears to be hit and miss. Seem slike Bristletooth Tangs and Rabbitfish are the best.

 

[IPT]

Why?
Keeping phosphate below 0.1 is an outdated practice if you would ask me.

Interesting. While keeping zero P04 is outdated, I wouldn't say keeping it .1 or higher is the new standard. People do it, and way higher too, and seem to be fine with amazing systems.

I'm generally getting good coral growth and have decent color, I would just like to see if I can get it to the next level. If nothing else this hobby requires constant evaluation and re-evaluation to see what works best in your system. I am just curious what effect running lower Po4 levels will have on my tank. Maybe a Dino outbreak, maybe better color....time will tell.

Your comment piqued my curiosity and I pulled up some well know vendors to see what they state their systems are running at (or they recommend) with regards to Po4. Only one recommended going above >.1 and that was only by .02 with the bottom of the range starting at .05 making the majority of their recommended range <.1.

P04 recommendation by vendor (from what was posted)

TSA - .04-.09
Leonardo's Reef - .05-.06 (Man I wish he was in the states! Insane stuff.)
POTO - .05-.12
WWC - .01-.1
Vivid - <.1
Pirates Reef - .05-.1

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Just bear in mind that a coral farmer may have different goals than a hobbyist. If a phosphate level of, say, 1 ppm causes a 10% drop in SPS growth rate relative to 0.05 ppm, that may be a big deal for them but not for many reef aquaria.

 

[Science/G]

First thing I think is to start with as accurate of a measurement as you can get. This is a pretty solid tool for $30.

 

[Science/G]

And for the hair algae, snails, snails and more snails. One to two turbos per gallon will take care of that hair algae in no time. You just have to babysit them a little bit. Tthey flip over often, and sometimes one will climb on another, and the first snail will try to buck him off. Turbo snail rodeo, got to love it

 

[ReneReef]

Interesting. While keeping zero P04 is outdated, I wouldn't say keeping it .1 or higher is the new standard. People do it, and way higher too, and seem to be fine with amazing systems.

I'm generally getting good coral growth and have decent color, I would just like to see if I can get it to the next level. If nothing else this hobby requires constant evaluation and re-evaluation to see what works best in your system. I am just curious what effect running lower Po4 levels will have on my tank. Maybe a Dino outbreak, maybe better color....time will tell.

Your comment piqued my curiosity and I pulled up some well know vendors to see what they state their systems are running at (or they recommend) with regards to Po4. Only one recommended going above >.1 and that was only by .02 with the bottom of the range starting at .05 making the majority of their recommended range <.1.

P04 recommendation by vendor (from what was posted)

TSA - .04-.09
Leonardo's Reef - .05-.06 (Man I wish he was in the states! Insane stuff.)
POTO - .05-.12
WWC - .01-.1
Vivid - <.1
Pirates Reef - .05-.1

Are you a vendor? I’m not.
I know Leo, I have some of his corals, they grow just fine at higher PO4.
His “trick” for those amazing colors: tons and tons and tons of light. White light, no blacklight rave.

Over the years I’ve kept my tank(s) at a wide range of levels of PO4. Below .1 to above .7. Never have I seen it effect coral coloration.

There is even a quite lot of scientific evidence that shows, higher PO4 increases coral growth.

My conclusion, striving for a particular PO4 level is just pointless. When my PO4 reaches .5 I just put a bag off absorber in my sump. Just to keep it from rising endlessly and keep it somewhat in the middle of the measurement range of my test.

 

[IPT]

Are you a vendor? I’m not.
I know Leo, I have some of his corals, they grow just fine at higher PO4.
His “trick” for those amazing colors: tons and tons and tons of light. White light, no blacklight rave.

Over the years I’ve kept my tank(s) at a wide range of levels of PO4. Below .1 to above .7. Never have I seen it effect coral coloration.

There is even a quite lot of scientific evidence that shows, higher PO4 increases coral growth.

My conclusion, striving for a particular PO4 level is just pointless. When my PO4 reaches .5 I just put a bag off absorber in my sump. Just to keep it from rising endlessly and keep it somewhat in the middle of the measurement range of my test.

In deed. Yes, he is a big fan of full spectrum lighting, I know that. Actually my tank is quite white most of the day sans an hour on either end of blue. I am not a big fan of the blue-blue look with neon fluorescence. I think he is also a big proponent of flow, as are most people with high success.

At the end of the day, what prompted me to even start this thread was the variability between readings. No matter if I choose to have elevated or depressed levels I can only do so if I can consistently measure accurately.

I'm not "chasing numbers" per say, to attain a particular value specifically, at least not because it is the status quo. I would however like to manipulate my parameters and after say 30-60 days assess the effect and decide if it was good for my tank or not. I order to do that I need to at the least have consistency between readings. I guess if ATI readings are ALWAYS 20ppm higher than what I read than it is what it is. If however I suspect a higher number is good or bad, but I don't have a consistent baseline to start from, that becomes an issue.

 

[IPT]

And for the hair algae, snails, snails and more snails. One to two turbos per gallon will take care of that hair algae in no time. You just have to babysit them a little bit. Tthey flip over often, and sometimes one will climb on another, and the first snail will try to buck him off. Turbo snail rodeo, got to love it

You're right. I have had good success with them. You just need to get the hair algae short enough and place them where you need the work. Good point, I probably just need more of them.

 

[IPT]

Just bear in mind that a coral farmer may have different goals than a hobbyist. If a phosphate level of, say, 1 ppm causes a 10% drop in SPS growth rate relative to 0.05 ppm, that may be a big deal for them but not for many reef aquaria.

Agreed, but I would imagine they are very concerned with color too. Having a brown coral that grows super fast wouldn't be ideal, I wouldn't think. Not to say a Po4 of .1 causes worse color than .05, but, maybe, in some tanks that would make a difference.

I would imagine as a scientist you would agree with the need to have consistent measure (if not accurate, at least consistent) and using a test re-test method, manipulating only one variable at a time (or at least trying to manipulate only one variable knowing it will cause other downstream changes).

Otherwise, and without experimentation, how could we be consistent an optimize outcomes?

 

[IPT]

Understand I have a decent tank. I do find it odd that there is so much hair algae in the frag tank and not the display tank but the Rabbitfish alone can account for that.

I've been at this many years, and I am precise by nature. Seeing such a discrepancy in testing numbers just surprised me (and I do think certain pieces I have can have better color (they did when they came in).

Tank shots...

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Agreed, but I would imagine they are very concerned with color too. Having a brown coral that grows super fast wouldn't be ideal, I wouldn't think. Not to say a Po4 of .1 causes worse color than .05, but, maybe, in some tanks that would make a difference.

I would imagine as a scientist you would agree with the need to have consistent measure (if not accurate, at least consistent) and using a test re-test method, manipulating only one variable at a time (or at least trying to manipulate only one variable knowing it will cause other downstream changes).

Otherwise, and without experimentation, how could we be consistent an optimize outcomes?

If it is important to you to have a value in a narrow range, I agree that accurate and precise testing is necessary.

I’m just not convinced that exact phosphate values matter for most reefers, with 1 ppm phosphate leading to a tank that nearly any reefer would want in terms of coral color and other attributes.

https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/randy’s-thoughts-on-nutrient-target-ranges.1087/edit
From it:


Figure 1. A very high nutrient system maintained by Richard Ross, with nitrate sometimes above 100 ppm and phosphate above 1 ppm. Details in this link:
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/rich-ross-home-tank-guess-the-phosphate.296635/

 

[IPT]

If it is important to you to have a value in a narrow range, I agree that accurate and precise testing is necessary.

https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/randy’s-thoughts-on-nutrient-target-ranges.1087/edit
From it:

Figure 1. A very high nutrient system maintained by Richard Ross, with nitrate sometimes above 100 ppm and phosphate above 1 ppm. Details in this link:
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/rich-ross-home-tank-guess-the-phosphate.296635/

Thanks Randy - as always you are a tremendous asset to this community!

I actually don't know how important it is to me to have a narrow range. The only way I'll be able to determine that is to be able to accurately test and compare apples to apples with regards to values and how my tank looks!

Yes, I have read that before and that tank is AMAZING. However, (Devils advocate here) it is not SPS dominant and has a lot of non-photosynthetic species and LPS. It may not be the best representation of parameters that would be ideal for a "modern" full blown SPS tank with off the chart coloration (if, in fact that is the end goal).

Thanks for sharing.